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Racing is essentially about what happens under a certain set of conditions on a particular day. As far as I am concerned Fame And Glory did not have any previous top class form under today’s conditions and therefore ran as well as could be expected. Had the ground been soft you would have been entitled to ask questions about the run.
I would agree Doctor Fremantle had been ‘consistent’ – for two runs!
I would agree with you Zarkava….he is very slow animal.
I don’t know what there are going to do with him tbh….they don’t need a paceless Montejeu for stud.
He could well be a cup horse alas Septimus.
I wait and see next year…could be a different horse with a winter on his back.
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For crying out loud, Zarkava, Sea The Stars beat Youmzain every bit as easily as your namesake and did so after a far more testing season. If the eighth wonder of the world had travelled at all, or even been allowed to prove herself on different ground, then your argument would have a little bit of substance. As it is it’s more hollow than Jordan’s surgically battered noggin.
I would agree with you Zarkava….he is very slow animal.
I don’t know what there are going to do with him tbh….they don’t need a paceless Montejeu for stud.
He could well be a cup horse alas Septimus.
I wait and see next year…could be a different horse with a winter on his back.
Triumph Hurdle?!
Just keep him at Ballydoyle and don’t bother sending him to Jackdaws
I backed F&G in the Derby and always thought that 12f would be the minimum trip for the horse. The fact that he won the Irish Derby in bog heavy ground shows that stamina not speed is his forte.
Yes this may have been a typical end of season result but credit must be given to Twice Over and not least Henry Cecil who has proved yet again that there really is no one better than him.
He has trained the horse to perfection…remember he is a genuine Group 1 horse who, barring an abject run in the Eclipse, has always been there or thereabouts and thoroughly deserved this win (not least because I was on him but only at 10/1!!) and finally gave the performance that he has promised since he beat Raven’s Pass in last years Craven Stakes. To rest him, and then give him two confidence boosters in minor races was a masterstroke and I thought he was way overpriced today! Compare this to the scattergun approach of AOB….
Credit must also go to Tom Queally who is turning into a fine young jockey and gave him a superb ride today.
Maybe it wasnt the finest running of the race but it contained a plethora of Group 1 form and I wouldn’t be on F&G to beat him over 10f if they met again next season.For crying out loud, Zarkava, Sea The Stars beat Youmzain every bit as easily as your namesake and did so after a far more testing season. If the eighth wonder of the world had travelled at all, or even been allowed to prove herself on different ground, then your argument would have a little bit of substance. As it is it’s more hollow than Jordan’s surgically battered noggin.
Wow, Sea The Stars had one extra run. Every single run came on pretty quick ground. Good at the absolute worst.
Zarkava proved herself on firm all the way down to good to soft. She gave away several lengths at the start of the Vermeille, and for the love of god, she beat Youmzain 10 times as easily as Sea The Stars did.
It’s very easy in the heat of the moment to say ‘that’s one of the greatest horses that’s ever lived’, but withstanding hindsight is the real test. Hindsight, like looking down the line 12 months on and saying ‘wow, the horses Zarkava beat have won 19 Group 1s between them’.
When is Nashwan’s name ever mentioned alongside Dancing Brave, Nijinsky, Sea Bird, Mill Reef? Never. I’d argue all day long that Nashwan achieved something a little more special since he took in 4 gruelling Group 1s in the space of 11 weeks. He beat his elders at the earliest possible opportunities. The form is rubbish, but so is Sea The Stars’.
The runner-up in 2 of his races has been beaten today by City Leader. The runner-up in the Juddmonte was beaten even by Fame And Glory. The runner-up in the Guineas has proved himself a non-stayer of a mile three times this season.
Let’s look at his record in 12 months time and then analyse him, because right now most people are still drunk on him.
I think Zarkava suffers from a condition know as extreme anger and i know why.
Zarkava was given a measly rating of 131 on Timeform and he see’s STS as a 140 this year.
Zarkava was the most exceptional racehorse and deserved to be up there with 137 IMO…she was one of the greatest Fillies ever to do what she did.
However STS get it because he ran in 3 different Countries and won 6 Group 1’s in a row in the biggest races.
Zarkava won one Big race in the Arc…
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It still appears that Mastercraftsman is one of the most underestimated horses this season. A four-time Group One winner who has a Classic to his name and a Royal Ascot victory over eight furlongs.
However, the horse stays ten furlongs and he’ll show that in the Breeders Cup Classic when he proves best of the european contingent.
Fame and Glory swept past him like he was standing still at Leopardstown before the greatest horse to grace the turf in 20 years (arguably longer) put him to the sword.
So to state that the trip was to blame for his defeat and / or the horse wasn’t good enough is lazy, in my opinion.
Maybe the reason Fame And Glory swept past Mastercraftsman was because he
was
standing still – or was Aidan O’Brien also being ‘lazy’ when he said immediately afterwards that MCM was better at a mile?
Fame and Glory may not have run to form today, but there’s little doubt he’s been overrated for beating modest opposition in the Irish Derby and a beleaguered MCM subsequently. Never has been anything like the 135 horse he was rated as a consequence, nor is ever likely to be.I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, people place far too much emphasis on ratings and in the process fail to analyse a race thoroughly enough.
It also appears that the ongoing argument regarding Sea The Stars has clouded the judgement of some. A case of forcing an hypothesis to fit a particular opinion ie Sea The Stars was overrated and Fame and Glory’s effort today proved it.
Of course it does…
The first paragraph – the absolute truth.
The last made me chuckle, and is equally as true!
Flat track bullies that are never in their horse boxes for more than half hour, spring to mind
So Sea The Stars and the 3yo form are heavily overrated based on Fame And Glory being stuffed today?
If Rip Van Winkle or Mastercraftsman win the BC Classic will the 3yos go back to being a vintage crop and will Sea The Stars regain his reputation as a modern great?
Said all year how bad the 3yos are. Sea The Stars best of a bad crop, and I’m sorry, but how on earth can anybody say that Sea The Stars is better than Zarkava now?
Zarkava was undoubtedly a cracking filly but she was wrapped up in cotton wool for the majority of her career whereas Sea The Stars was asked to go to the well month after month from May to October. Would Zarkava have maintained her form as well as STS had she ran at Epsom, Sandown and Leopardstown? I’m not so sure.
The trouble with putting a rating on Sea The Stars is that nothing ever got to the bottom of him and he’d beat a Group 1 horse by about the same distance that he’d beat a Group 3/Listed class horse. He’d only do enough when sent to the front and similar to Moscow Flyer over fences, it is impossible to accurately quantify his greatness because of this trait.
Agree with positive remarks about Sariskas running, seemed to totally blow her start or maybe just too slow early? I didn’t really catch it
Fallon is like a dog, the guy just never seems to give up
Not a jock that I like to take on with a lay bet too often I’ve got to admit- Total Posts 17716
The trouble with putting a rating on Sea The Stars is that nothing ever got to the bottom of him and he’d beat a Group 1 horse by about the same distance that he’d beat a Group 3/Listed class horse. He’d only do enough when sent to the front and similar to Moscow Flyer over fences, it is impossible to accurately quantify his greatness because of this trait.
Not sure that I’d agree with that either IC.
In the RP’s words he had to "dig deep" to fend off Rip Van Winkle in the Eclipse after the latter had looked all over the winner, and – given that the 2nd has subsequently won two Im gp1’s comfortably – it may well be that RVW was wilting, rather than STS finding extra.Personally Reet, I think that was more a case of Mick being left in front far too early. STS was idling but when Rip got to his backside he went away again and won fairly cosily.
Agree with positive remarks about Sariskas running, seemed to totally blow her start or maybe just too slow early? I didn’t really catch it
Fallon is like a dog, the guy just never seems to give up
Not a jock that I like to take on with a lay bet too often I’ve got to admitFallon done as good as he could of on Sariska.
She completely blew the start forfeiting some 5 lengths, I’d say, and then didn’t look too interested in going after them on ground I’m sure she doesn’t like. Fallon didn’t panic and coaxed her into it brilliantly, but it was too late.
All this race and result says to me is Sariska is a VERY good filly; the performances of the rest pale to insignificance for me. If she had a decent start – nevermind her ground – the 3yo filly would have cantered all over them.
Seeing her in action next year will go some way to making up for STS’s absence.
It still appears that Mastercraftsman is one of the most underestimated horses this season. A four-time Group One winner who has a Classic to his name and a Royal Ascot victory over eight furlongs.
However, the horse stays ten furlongs and he’ll show that in the Breeders Cup Classic when he proves best of the european contingent.
Fame and Glory swept past him like he was standing still at Leopardstown before the greatest horse to grace the turf in 20 years (arguably longer) put him to the sword.
So to state that the trip was to blame for his defeat and / or the horse wasn’t good enough is lazy, in my opinion.
Maybe the reason Fame And Glory swept past Mastercraftsman was because he was
standing still – or was Aidan O’Brien also being ‘lazy’ when he said immediately afterwards that MCM was better at a mile?
Fame and Glory may not have run to form today, but there’s little doubt he’s been overrated for beating modest opposition in the Irish Derby and a beleaguered MCM subsequently. Never has been anything like the 135 horse he was rated as a consequence, nor is ever likely to be.Isn’t the Breeders Cup Classic (10F) being favoured over the BC Mile (8F)?
Why, oh why, would Aiden aim another, supposedly suspect stayer, at a race where he already has the clear favourite?
Wouldn’t the BC Mile be a more obvious target for Mastercraftsman?
I actually think Rip Van Winkle would be better suited to the BCM. Mastercraftsman is our best chance of winning the BCC for the second successive year, in my opinion.
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I actually think Rip Van Winkle would be better suited to the BCM. Mastercraftsman is our best chance of winning the BCC for the second successive year, in my opinion.
I’d bet good money that J Murtagh won’t think so. when it comes to choosing which to ride.
I think that it is entirely possible that when this season is looked back on, many will think that STS really only beat an underwhelming bunch (RVW apart) and comparisons with Dancing braves season will be interesting
Still think STS is the best ive seen since the brave, but if one horse could have caught him it would have been Zarakava. STS’s slight tendency to idle in front could just have been fatal. But Zarakava’s lack of top class racing is something her owner should be ashamed of
If F&G is rated higher than Zarakava, then thats yet another reason to treat ratings as something to glance at rather than pin your cash on
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