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sariska has ran an absolute stormer on fast ground she does not like was slowly away badly was never travelling and back to 1m 4 f would ov won by 5 soft ground middle distance group 1s shell take sum stopping next year what a 4 yr old shell make arc next year me thinks. she was not right today fallon never seemed happy. bell must be delighted with that run.
Yes F+G is one paced.
He has fallen away the past 2 runs. Maybe a long season.
He has it all to prove next year
Fame And Glory may have suffered for being more prominant than usual off a blistering pace. However you would have to be disappointed with his performance it was much as it was in the Arc – flat. Had enough for the season is the obvious conclusion to come to. Makes you realise just how good Sea The Stars was to do it time and time again.
Very unlikely Twice Over has suddenly improved so in all probability this was effectively a Group 2 run under the banner of a Group 1.
I think Fame And Glory has run his race as he did in the Arc. He has never been a 135 horse. Time to reassess that Irish Champion Stakes?
Very unlikely Twice Over has suddenly improved so in all probability this was effectively a Group 2 run under the banner of a Group 1.
I think Fame And Glory has run his race as he did in the Arc. He has never been a 135 horse. Time to reassess that Irish Champion Stakes?
Twice Over is probably around a 121 horse at best. That would mean Fame And Glory has run to around 113 today – there is no way on gods earth that is his true running.
Very unlikely Twice Over has suddenly improved so in all probability this was effectively a Group 2 run under the banner of a Group 1.
I think Fame And Glory has run his race as he did in the Arc. He has never been a 135 horse. Time to reassess that Irish Champion Stakes?
In short, No!
Will be interesting how Rip Van Winkle and Mastercraftsman run in the Breeders Cup.If Fame And Glory has run his race the last twice, English Champion and Arc, then how do you rate the Irish Derby?
Beating Golden Sword by further than Sea The Stars did at Epsom. Mourayan (unlucky in the St Leger) beaten 6 lengths in third.
If you think F&G ran to form, then Sea The Stars is nowhere near as good as been rated.
So who do you rate Stilvi?
He’s beaten Rip who’s gone on… Conduit who’s gone on…. Mastercraftsman who won….. Delegator who’s finished second…… Sea The Stars has beaten everything easily.
Horses don’t run to form every time. F&G has run very good races on good or softer, disappointed on a firm surface. Todays run was predictable.
Do agree this was a poor "Champion". Great to see Henry win another Group 1. Still a top trainer. But don’t think Twice Over improved much if at all. Mawaafeeq improved and can improve next season. Sariska should be some 4 year old filly. Though she didn’t run her race; whether because of going, trip or a poor run (slow away and not well placed).
Value Is Everything
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Time to reassess that Irish Champion Stakes?
Completely agree. Neither Fame And Glory or Sea The Stars have come anywhere near their ratings for that race – before or since.
I rate Sea The Stars as the one outstanding 3yo this year but I don’t think you can rate him that highly by taking a literal interpretation of the form. I would have loved to have seen him running against Goldikova and Presvis but unfortunately that was never going to happen. I think at their best those two are better than any of the other 3yos. I think both the English and Irish Derby’s were pretty ordinary. The two Irish summer classics were slogfests.
I think under today’s conditions that is just about as good as Fame And Glory is. His claim to the high rating rests on his defeat of Mastercraftsman who achieved his plaudits in a muddling two-horse race at York. The formlines for me are dubious. Rip Van Winkle’s Sussex Stakes was devalued by Ghanaati and his own scrambling victory at Ascot.
Beating Golden Sword by further than Sea The Stars did at Epsom. Mourayan (unlucky in the St Leger) beaten 6 lengths in third.
Agreeing with Stilvi, but also, STS simply didnt win his races by miles. Never had to. Very dubious to use GS as a form line (and hes not gone on at all)
I think F&G has been the most overrated horse this year. I did a rare lay today simply because so many obvious factors were against (distance, ground, hard recent race etc)but also im not sure his form is a great as some believe. Taking proximity to STS is a dubious line, because STS just cantered past him each time and never did more than he had to. Irish champion was closest to substance maybe, but again that circulates around Mastercraftsman rather than the easy winner
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Well as I pointed out in my post, I got it right.
There I was on Betfair staring at Twice Over 19.5 with just under a grand avaiable….clicked on it put 950 quid in the box and then thought "Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! it’s a monkey" so what did I do….changed to Fame and Glory and lost the money I had won on Twice over on the books ew…all but 50 quid anyway…..how about that for stupid
Must talk to Corm about adding a puke smiley
Said all year how bad the 3yos are. Sea The Stars best of a bad crop, and I’m sorry, but how on earth can anybody say that Sea The Stars is better than Zarkava now?
Fame and Glory just packed it in today.
He has been in fast work probaly since March and now its Near November. He has run 7 Times this season and many of those against STS and is most defintely a inferior horse to him.
I don’t believe he is a 135 or whatever he is rating wise but he is a horse of New Approach’s class and not the way timeform judge btw.
Greater horses than him have found out at newmarket in the past so it doesnt dampen the form what so ever.
It just shows how great John Oxx and Mick Kinane have trained this superb animal to still win the Arc and all those Group 1’s this year.
There not machine lads.
Wallace, bar Alborada in 98 and 99, the other 13 Champion Stakes winners between 95 and 2009 had all been on the go since May at the absolute latest. The majority had even run in April.
Fame And Glory wasn’t suited to 10f today because he is simply too slow. I’ve said for an extremely long time that he is nothing but a Cup horse and I expect to be proven correct by that statement. He is so stoutly bred it’s incredible. The only recent Derby winner bred as stoutly as he is is Authorized, also by Montjeu.
look back at the horses F&G has beaten and there really isnt a lot to get excited about at all. His high rating is down to his proximity to STS, but thats decpetive given STS’s ease of victories. I think hes simply been exposed in last two races rather than seriously regressed
How anyone can believe that Fame and Glory was at his best today is beyond me.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, people place far too much emphasis on ratings and in the process fail to analyse a race thoroughly enough.
Fame and Glory was never travelling today. Regardless of what your opinion may be about his ability, a horse that finished second in an Epsom Derby, won an Irish Derby and finished second in an Irish Champion Stakes should travel better than he did at Newmarket against a fairly ordinary collection of ‘Group One’ horses (Sariska and Mawatheeq the exceptions)
It still appears that Mastercraftsman is one of the most underestimated horses this season. A four-time Group One winner who has a Classic to his name and a Royal Ascot victory over eight furlongs.
However, the horse stays ten furlongs and he’ll show that in the Breeders Cup Classic when he proves best of the european contingent.
Fame and Glory swept past him like he was standing still at Leopardstown before the greatest horse to grace the turf in 20 years (arguably longer) put him to the sword.
So to state that the trip was to blame for his defeat and / or the horse wasn’t good enough is lazy, in my opinion.
It also appears that the ongoing argument regarding Sea The Stars has clouded the judgement of some. A case of forcing an hypothesis to fit a particular opinion ie Sea The Stars was overrated and Fame and Glory’s effort today proved it.
Of course it does…
You only need look at the respective fininshing order to see this race should be taken with a pinch of salt.
City Leader beat Fame and Glory (5th and 6th)
Group One winners Never On Sunday and Alpine Rose well beaten (10th / 13th)
The consistent, talented and fancied Doctor Freemantle (11th)This was your typical end of season Group One contest, comprised of horses who were campaigned with the race in mind (Twice Over), improving horses taking a step up in class (Mawatheeq) and those who were having one race too many – Fame and Glory.
Not only has he been well campaigned this season, but he’s been on the go for almost a year – his ninth race during that time. Constitution levels vary from horse to horse and perhaps Fame and Glory cried ‘enough’ today.
Twice Over stays in training and hopefully Fame and Glory will, too.
If the two were to meet next year over ten furlongs, I’d be fairly certain that Fame and Glory would come out on top.
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Said all year how bad the 3yos are. Sea The Stars best of a bad crop, and I’m sorry, but how on earth can anybody say that Sea The Stars is better than Zarkava now?
They’re Star Struck?
I said "seriously" regressed. He didnt run to form but i also think that the form isnt all that. Mastercraftsman remains the one top form horse hes beaten at his supposed peak and his best form seems to have been at 8f (or in the muddling international)
The irish derby was an awful race and not much has come out of the derby (havent checked admittedly) apart from RVW whos clearly better over shorter
I think his arc form was probably as good as he is and today was a case of having the distance and ground and prepartion against him too
And was the travelling difficulty today simply down to the distance and pace? Zarakava is probably right when he says he needs full 12f at least. Even in the irish derby he needed to be pushed along on the heavy turning the bend
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