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Fair play, Mark. What I also took into account after York was Gosden’s enthusiastic report that the horse had suddenly begun blooming. That added much credence to what the eye saw.
There are just too many question marks on the ground side. Given his now obvious record, he should have been the biggest cert to look through a bridle at Epsom on soft ground, yet he barely scrambled home. There is no way of judging the effect that stalls incident had on him, and perhaps, in hindsight given his other performances on soft, should have been regarded as a much heavier mitigator on that performance than it has been.
As mentioned, within 3 weeks he is out again, finishing runner up to the KG winner despite sweating up and being mulish beforehand (both uncharacteristic). Questions raised there:
Was he still feeling the effects of Epsom?
Did his coltish behaviour contribute to his defeat?
Was his first experience of fast ground deleterious?Gosden has done a superb spin job of hanging his supposed temperament issues and ground preferences on this one race. You can bet your house and everything in it that if Enable had never been in the yard, Gosden would have passed any questions of temperament and favoured ground off as ridiculous on the basis of a single performance; he didn’t exactly finish last.
The evidence we do have is stark: he’s been out of the first two once, when 3rd in The Derby. His two runner-up spots have been in the Irish Derby (which he should have won) and the Prince oF Wales, mentioned above. Does that record sound like one belonging to an animal of dodgy temperament and decisive going preferences?
Credit again to Gosden: in service of his agenda he has spun Cracksman wonderfully. Racing has been the loser.
That moment… When you find out… That you have the same name… As a ginger.
Yes fair play Ginge, if only your arch nemesis Steve could ‘give’ just a little
Stop talking so much sense Steeplechasing!! Racing was the massive loser. If he’d have been with someone else, he’s star would have shone brighter. Abdullah is a bigger owner, AO comes out of this looking a bit silly/naive IMO.
Cracksman this year didn’t deserve to go near the Arc given questionable attitude and ground concerns. I still am not sure he’d have beaten Enable last year, i remember siding with her before the race. I could be wrong of course, but again, he wasn’t a G1 Winner.
It’s no-ones fault connection-wise IMO.
He was superb today.
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!Hes a rotten horse to follow, one trick pony clearly, cant reproduce that anywhere bar here on this ground, needs blinkers, cant run near a filly, MUST have soft ground, needs a small field, much better at 10f
Ill be surprised if his stallion career is upto much.
Delighted for connections of the horse in 3rd, that was a ballsy move to come here and it paid off.
Does that record sound like one belonging to an animal of dodgy temperament and decisive going preferences?
It is a bit harsh to call it “dodgy temperament”, may be it would be fairer to call it his “characteristics”. Being coltish occasionally (not all the time) and being a bit lazy in his running (which normally only means he needs to be actually asked for his effort, instead of travelling with ease through a race). Something blinkers have probably helped cure/almost cure. Nowhere near enough to call it “dodgy”.
May be it was only natural progression through his three year old season that saw him only placed in two Derbys. True, dual Derby placed horses don’t normally have their going requirements questioned. But the going requirement question is relevent because those two soft ground Champion Stakes performances remain significantly better than anything else he’s achieved (by 9 lbs+ on Timeform Performance Ratings)…
Although it is interesting that their performance rating for the POW second is equal to the Voltigeur (his equal third best) and higher than both Corry Cup and Ganay (latter the lowest)… Which was one reason I took the ante-post price. Cracksman’s Timeform Performance Ratings of both 3yo and 4yo (and 2yo when not seen until late in the year) all suggesting to me that it is at least not only a matter of goings; he gets better the further he goes through a season – best in the Autumn.
Value Is EverythingCracksman really is turning into the flat equivalent of Bristol De Mai!
Very much capable of throwing out some fantastic performances given a perfect set of conditions however, not able to win consistently.
You can’t tell me that Capri and Crystal Ocean have shown true form yesterday having Subway Dancer so close? Rhododendron and Verbal Dexterity too?
I really hope they don’t get carried away with this and rate him through the roof. I see RPRs have given CO a rating that suggests an underperformance and possibly the race didn’t pan out 100% ideal for him. Though, he was never getting near Cracksman today.
I note people on social media are quick to criticise JG for “suiting himself” however, what about the fact that he’s trained a mare to run twice this year and win an Arc + also has trained a colt that has looked out of love with the game a few times to perform like he did yesterday?
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!Very much capable of throwing out some fantastic performances given a perfect set of conditions however, not able to win consistently.
Back to the throwaway stuff, which can have a drip effect with horses like Cracksman when lazy punters take the word of someone supposedly knowledgeable. Not able to win consistently? He’s been beaten 3 times in his career (should have been just twice due to jockey error) He’s won 6 of his last 7 and was 2nd in the other one to the KG winner.
Back to the throwaway stuff, which can have a drip effect with horses like Cracksman when lazy punters take the word of someone supposedly knowledgeable.
Not exactly sure what this is meant to mean…? I presume things have got nasty
Not even sure who the “supposedly knowledgeable” is meant to be.
I’ve probably worded the “winning consistently” part wrong, of course a horse of his level can win races consistently. What i mean is Cracksman’s form is starting to show signs of being very very good on soft ground, whilst not being able to perform to the level on any other conditions. Yes he will pick up G1s like the Ganay which was a poor renewal, but top summer horses will beat him.
He’s going to end up the top rated horse of the year for this after all.
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!He ran once on good to firm and there is considerably doubt (due to other previously mentioned reasons) as to that being the reason he was beaten – but connections assumed it was and then never gave him the chance to prove it one way or the other by never running him on it again so stating
‘whilst not being able to perform to the level on any other conditions’
I feel is a tad bitharsh.
Yes the overall form of the race looks suspect with the third being so close to Crystal Ocean but bear in mind that he was ridden from off the pace to achieve the best possible placing whilst CO & Capri tried to go with the winner and paid for it at the end.
Also don’t forget that that poor renewal Ganay was run in a very fast time (on the same good ground as Arc day, though Gosden alluded to it being nearer good to firm) and included the same Cloth of Stars who was beaten 2.5L and 1L behind Enable in the last two Arcs.
Out of the last two renewals of the Arc, connections had more justification (however misplaced I think it was) to miss this years race but there was none last year aside from the fact that I think it was smart politics on Gosden’s behalf to bag two valuable G1s rather than beating his star filly with another horse in his own yard in one race.
Personally Joe – when judging “form” – I think it’s lazy when punters concentrate far too much on winning form rather than quality of performance. Horses often win without being anywhere near their best and run to form without winning (or even placing).
Yes, Cracksman won most of his races. Point is – although you can not expect a horse to run to its very best every time – he had the form to win those races a lot easier than he actually did. This particular inconsistency means he’s won several races (and been a fairly close second in a good Group 1) when quite a long way below form. Therefore, when judging horses like Cracksman it’s important to take note what circumstances prevailed on his (now) two stand out performances. Otherwise punters will find it impossible to judge whether a horse is value under race conditions.
Value Is EverythingOn Racing Post standard times the time of Cracksman’s Ganay wasn’t that fast compared to all times on the day LD. Not as much faster as I’d expect of inferior horses.
10.5f Group 1 Ganay 0.053 seconds per furlong fast.
7f Handicap (admittedly by one of the same age carrying 9 lbs less) 0.037 seconds per furlong fast.Just 0.016 difference per furlong between a Group 1 and handicap.
Seemed to me they only went a reasonable pace and quickened in the straight.Value Is EverythingGinger – fair enough but I was just pointing to the fact that he was able to cope with much quicker conditions (the same offical going description as on Arc day, which was deemed to be to fast for him by connections!!) than his two standout performances and that he still looked visually impressive whilst doing it.
Agree, the Czech horse was flattered being ridden from the back and picking up the pieces from horses who’d tried to go with the favourite. Crystal Ocean would’ve been a length (possibly two) closer without losing momentum behind the pacemaker just as Cracksman quickened. Tbh couldn’t understand Capri’s price – after a hard race in the Arc, never going to be as effective at 10f and needed to improve quite a bit as it was.
Value Is EverythingThe Timeform Performance Rating put up by Cracksman in the Ganay is a full stone below his Champion Stakes’, LD. When a racehorse of his exceptional quality takes on much inferior (Wrens Day) and out of form (Cloth Of Stars and Rhododendron) rivals, he’s bound to appear “impressive” even when a long way below form. When a horse has run a full stone below his best is that really “coping”? To put that Ganay rating in to perspective, it would only be good enough to be in the mix for fighting out 8th and 9th place in this year’s Arc. I can understand if people believe Cracksman had a lot more in hand there… But on “form” the Ganay can not seriously be used to suggest Cracksman is anything like as effective on that surface. Fact is he beat Wrens Day 4 lengths.
Value Is EverythingJack, if you think being called out on a blatantly false statement is ‘getting nasty’, then I’m not sure how you’d view some past (and doubtless future) threads on here.
And yes I’d put you in the category of your friends viewing you as supposedly knowledgeable about racing. A number of your posts make a lot of sense. When you churn out lazy stuff like that Cracksman post, you deserve to be challenged, in my view, especially about a horse who’s been getting a pretty bad rep from those reacting to general chatter rather than an objective assessment of evidence.
I wouldn’t have expected him to run to that level on his comeback run but for people to say that he couldn’t replicate a performance like yesterday on quicker ground when he wasn’t actually given the chance to by his connections is being unfair to the horse.
People will point to Royal Ascot as evidence but as I have said before the signs before that race were that his mind was totally on other things before he even set foot onto the course, which some seem to think was simply an excuse and not relevant at all to his performance.
Yes he beat Wren’s Day by 4L and I agree that in of itself it is nothing to write home about but then you could also argue that this years Arc wouldn’t have taken anything near his 130 best to win when you see that Cloth of Stars was beaten just 1L, Capri 3.25L, Salouen 3.75L and pacemaker Nelson 4.25L
I could be totally wrong in my assessment but the fact was that (due to a rather gun shy set of connections) he never got the proper chance to prove it one way or the other and that is the most unfortunate thing about it all as in some people’s eyes that will always be held against him.
It’s a very simple thing really, and it gets made very complicated. If you go back, before the race was run, I was saying about his absolutely massive stride. He has a stride straight from his father. That was evident again yesterday as he came off of that home turn. When he had suitable conditions to show his very best, NOTHING over the past two years would have got near him, over 1m2f or 1m4f. Horses still need a bit of luck to be top of the tree champions. If Enable had bad luck, she would not have won two arcs.Cracksman had a bit of bad luck. Again, this year was probably the hottest since records began near enough. For a horse that IMO, is not at his best on quick ground, and whom apparently does not like the heat… He done alright really as Steeplechasing points out. He was the best horse in his Derby, easily, he just did not handle Epsom. When Frankie asked him to go and win the race, he folded and rolled into the rail on the camber. He could not open that stride up on a camber, or on faster ground. When he could open that stride up, as in yesterday, he chews anything up that races against him. There is a specific reason that Roaring Lion went for the mile on his owners day. The stable knew he had absolutely zero chance against Cracksman in the champion.
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