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I wouldn’t use the BC as the acid test on which to judge any European horse.
It’s at the end of the European season by which time many are past their peak.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Plus the ground was firm (the first time he had ever encountered ground that quick) which wasn’t to his liking as 6 of his 8 wins had come on ground ranging from good to very soft yet he was still only beaten 2L.
He was a good yardstick simple because had it not been for being born in Frankel’s year, in 12 sucessive races from the start of his 3yr old season to the end of his 4yr old season Excelebration would have the following form figures:
2011 Won Greenham Stakes (G3)
2011 Won German 2000g (G2) Likely would have run in 2000g at Newmarket instead of dodging Frankel
2011 2nd St James’s Palace (G1)
2011 Won Hungerford Stakes (G3)
2011 Won Prix Du Moulin (G1)
2011 Won QE2 (G1)
2012 Won Gladness Stakes (G3)
2012 Won Lockinge (G1)
2012 Won Queen Anne (G1)
2012 Won Prix Jacques le Marois (G1)
2012 Won QE2 (G1) thus being only the 3rd back to back winner after Rose Bowl & Brigadier Gerard
2012 4th BC MileAnd he’d have probably won the 2011 St James’s Palace, in Frankel’s absence, as he wouldn’t have tired himself out chasing the great horse and leaving himself susceptible to Zoffany’s late surge.
As for denigrating Excelebration because he was only fourth at the Breeders Cup, so was Dancing Brave. He was obviously crap, too.
“As for denigrating Excelebration because he was only fourth at the Breeders Cup, so was Dancing Brave. He was obviously crap, too.”
There are moments, Gladders, when you elevate your postings from the standard always highly readable to simply brilliant.
This was surely one of them.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Dancing Brave is one of top five horses ever, in my books – better than Frankel.
What happened to him at the Breeders’ Cup can be excused. I feel it was mostly related to travel and the hot weather, but who really knows?
For me Dancing Brave isn’t as good as Frankel – whilst his Arc win was spellbinding it didn’t give me the feel that Frankel’s Royal Lodge, 2000g, Queen Anne, 2nd Sussex Stakes & Juddmonte wins did.
DB’s greatness primarily hangs on one performance and one could argue that the Arc (ratings wise) doesn’t make a lot of sense with them finishing pretty much in a heap, outside of Shahrastani (4th) who got his 135 rating from his Irish Derby win (which you could question given Mashkour’s poor run compared to Epsom) – are we to believe that the 2nd (Bering – 136), 3rd (Triptych – 133 I believe) and 5th (Shadari – 134) all ran the best races of their career when Triptych was beaten further than 2L by DB in both that seasons Eclipse and King George (in which she also beat Shahrastani) and Shadari who actually finished closer to Dancing Brave is the King George.
We do know at that time ratings were inflated a few lbs for ‘easy of win’ which I am not entirely sure how that can be quantified and as such they do not rate horses in the same way now.
Personal preference is never wrong but to me the things Frankel did in races on a seemingly regular basis were things you just don’t see racehorses do.
LD,
Well said! A very thoughtful and balanced argument. You gave very good reasons for why you think Frankel is better than Dancing Brave. I totally understand your position.
But whether or not we’re in agreement is not the issue here, understanding is key. If people understand each other and the reasons why they hold their positions then they’re more likely to respect each other more and be more considerate. This may not always be the case, but generally through understanding we’ll get along with each other much better…
It is impossible to reach definitive conclusions on, for instance, the greatest race horse, or athlete, or football team, etc., etc., No methodology has yet been invented to make such determination.
It’s like asking what’s the best ice cream flavor? Some may go for vanilla, some may prefer chocolate, and others may like strawberry, etc…Yet, some people here take things to the extreme and appear to suffer from convulsions because someone has a view that horse “A” is comparable to, or better than, horse “B”.
People should relax, take it easy. The world is not going to end because one fails to persuade someone to their way of thinking. I can assure you, tomorrow the sun will rise and the birds will sing!
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