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Yeah I think the same already had a few quid on GC but good to get other views.
My above post was meant to say Cheltenham/Sandown not Aintree….
Blackbeard to conquer the World
I wonder with all the withdrawal of the Mullins horses and the switching of the O’Leary string whether there’s been a problem with the mullins yard? Maybe some lingering virus?
Or was he (douvan) got at?
Just to highlight how daft this is one more time
Douvan flopped/injured
No annie,faugheen,min etc
No problem….
What a week for the yardAlthough Altior didn’t look visually impressive, I’ve heard the time was very good and he was running on strong at the end. Can anyone confirm that the time was good..?
Blackbeard to conquer the World
From what I can make out Nathan, and from Phil Smith’s account, the race
was run at a slower pace, with Charbel allowed to make the running. They
came to the 3rd last 4.5 secs (or 20L) slower than Special Tiara at the
same point in the Champion Chase, but Altior’s finishing time was half
a second faster than Special Tiara. I think if Altior had had the race
run at at a stronger pace, he would have been even more impressive than
he was and he may have won by further than the 6L that he did.The question being asked is, is he better than Sprinter Sacre?…..he
is great, but those are big boots to fill.Thanks for that BigG, that would go some way to explain why he wasn’t overly that impressive visually.
If he was in the QMCC Special Tiara’s pace would have carried him though without Nico having to nudge.
Is he better than Sprinter…?
Sprinter in his prime was a beast. Altior looks potentially able to get closeBlackbeard to conquer the World
Whatever pace they went in the Arkle, Altior, to my eye, didn’t look half the horse he was at Newbury a month before and that was after they’d jumped three fences. The Newbury sparkle just was not there and I’ll stay with my post-Newbury assumption that he took far more out of himself there with his Denman-like gallop and exuberant jumps than many believed.
His undoubted class saw him through last week and, right on his game, I think he’d smash Douvan over 2 miles and pretty much everything else although I’d think twice if Un De Sceaux turned up – his was a mighty performance, though he wouldn’t have wanted a yard farther, so there must be every chance he’ll line up in the QM next year.
Un De Sceau and Altior both at the top of their game, I’d pay good money to see that one Joe
I think he’d smash Douvan over 2 miles
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Douvan’s Arkle win 7 seconds faster than Altior? And if we want to use Altior’s Newbury run as a benchmark for his greatness, Douvan has beaten Fox Norton by 32 lengths and 11 lengths to Altiors 13 on ground which clearly suited Altior over Fox Norton.
Now I do think Altior is the real deal, but to say he would ‘smash’ Douvan over 2 miles is quite ridiculous.
Voleur, when they haven’t met, sometimes you just want to take a position on these things. Comparing ground conditions in different years for times and in races that have been run differently against rivals who might have improved significantly (Fox Norton) makes little sense to me.
There was always the possibility Douvan was overrated – certainly as a supposed superstar – over fences. He’s a pretty sloppy jumper and I suspect the stress fracture did not play a significant part in his defeat last week. Time will tell. I’d be happy to bet good money the Newbury version of Altior would jump Douvan inside out and leave him trailing.
I could, of course, be wrong. But I’d pay to find out.
Yet when making such statements, they are the only things with which we can compare them.
Douvan’s jumping is sloppy? He is renowned for his effortless, low, accurate jumping, which is ideal for a two mile chaser. The fracture didn’t play as much of a part? You try running 2 miles with a fractured hip. Newbury Altior would jump him inside out? Douvan is on the ground to the other side while Altior is still hanging up in the air, as he tends to do with his exuberance. For a man with a name such as yours, you dont seem to know a how a top 2 mile chaser should jump.
With his unbeaten streak lost, I suspect connections to be a lot braver with him next season, and we will see what he is truly made of in the Tingle Creek et al.
And you dont really think Fox Norton improved 50 odd lengths do you? Really?
Douvan is possibly one of the best over a fence there has been in recent years, he was CLEARLY amiss in the cc
Ill be happy if they meet and altior is fav ill be all over douvan regardless
As would I. One thing’s for sure, whoever wins will have an absolutely monster rating.
He might be low, he’s not always accurate by any means and is most definitely not ‘one of the best over a fence in recent years’
Against much inferior opponents this season he’s been jumping almost as though he couldn’t be arsed half the time – like a lanky kid who didn’t really want to be at the school sports day never mind in the 400m hurdles. Sometimes he bends his back properly; more often than not he doesn’t. He consents to kind of lollop over in an “Oh, bloody hell, not another one!” sort of fashion (I’m sure a close-up head shot would see him rolling his eyes)
If, as connections believe he got the injury early, it didn’t affect his action enough for his very experienced jock to decide to pull up and it still allowed him to throw some enormous, if ill-timed jumps on the far side. As for running two miles with a fractured hip, I’ve heard the injury described as a ‘tiny stress fracture’. What that means in practise I don’t know. A quick google search suggests it is often accompanied by lameness, though not, apparently in the case of Douvan.
As to Altior’s ‘exuberant’ jumps – agreed, far from ideal both in time and energy waste. But in general, he’s a much better, much more athletic and much safer jumper than Douvan. And on Fox Norton, I didn’t claim he improved by 50 lengths. He’s had a troubled season so I don’t know how much he’s improved. I’d never argue pure pounds and lengths in any matter; there are far too many variables in every race to call one piece of evidence against another with any confidence. As this debate shows (and most of the threads on this forum), it’s a game of opinions. Some day we might get to see Altior and Douvan meet with both in perfect shape in a race where luck plays no part. That’s when we get the answer.
I don’t agree with that assessment of his jumping whatsoever. For the most part he is totally effortless over the obstacles and looks an absolute natural. Willie Mullins has never had an issue with his jumping nor has anyone else of note for that matter. I know for a fact you would not have voiced these criticisms before last Wednesday, and if you did you would have been laughed at.
I am not saying Douvan is incapable of making mistakes as he clearly is, explaining his injury, which yes, most definitely affected his run. No matter how small, a fracture is a fracture and just because the horse showed no outward signs of discomfort it clearly affected his athletic ability. Form just doesn’t reverse that drastically.
You are entitled to your opinion but it is incredibly biased and I am simply calling you out on your original statement of Altior ‘smashing’ Douvan. On all known form and ability, both horses have an equal chance of winning.
I know for a fact you would not have voiced these criticisms before last Wednesday, and if you did you would have been laughed at.
That’s about as daft a statement as anybody could make. Have you implanted a surveillance chip in me that I’m unaware of? I questioned his jumping on Twitter after the Arkle a year ago – I had a couple of sensible responses but wasn’t, to my knowledge “laughed at”. I don’t know who you class as people of ‘note’ – only those who agree with you? Kevin Blake has questioned Douvan’s jumping more than once.
A huge number of people in racing watch a horse go from one side of an obstacle to another and make a quick conclusion – great jumper/average/poor. In my experience very few take the time to look at the mechanics and break down the technique. Most simply go with the herd. I can’t be bothered searching over the years on this forum, but if you care to, have a look for my comments on the likes of Simonsig, Long Run, At Fisher’s Cross, The New One, Thistlecrack, Bristol De Mai, Yorkhill. The latter on the run up to Cheltenham became another ‘pop ht’ for the herd, condemned by the mob as an awful jumper, a lunatic, won’t get round, “did you see that schooling session!!!” etc., Anyway, I’ll bore people no further – search if you’re so inclined.
Form just doesn’t reverse that drastically.
Seriously? How long have you been watching racing? Form reverses drastically time after time: that’s what allows bookmakers to survive. The reasons for form reversals would fill a book.
And if I understand correctly the Americanism ‘calling you out’, people get called out when they have facts wrong – like Trump. I’m offering an opinion. If all opinions in racing were based on ‘all known form and ability’, forums would be boring places if they existed at all. I think that in the circumstances I set out, Altior would smash Douvan. You disagree. That’s fine. Some day we might get to see what happens. I very much doubt there is any more I can usefully add to this part of the debate.
We could be here all year. The only time I remember Kevin Blake questioning his jumping was before his Arkle run, where he said he “wasn’t totally convinced yet”. Douvan went on to jump them to death in the Arkle, not so much at Aintree (where he still won by 13 lengths), and certainly again at Punchestown. He has been foot perfect this season except for the occasional last fence blip. Now for the Champion Chase, that was his first ‘real’ race in open company and understandably he was under pressure from the get-go. Mullins should have prepared him better for that pace by running him in the Tingle or Clarence.
Just because your opinion differs from the ‘herd’ does not make it more valid, or make the herds any less valid. People see what is right in front of their eyes. As for Douvan’s poor jumping form, the way I see it, he carries so much forward momentum into his jumps and has so much scope that he simply has no need to bend his back the ‘proper’ way. He has a style that resembles a simple shrug of the shoulders and he’s up and over.
You can take the americanised phrase any way you want, but by calling you out I simply wanted to engage in a debate on your statement, there is no proper definition for it.
Douvan is not a perfect jumper and he certainly lacks experience in Championship pace races, but to categorise him as a ‘sloppy’ jumper is daft.
I would also like to add on Yorkhill, just because you have been vindicated by his impressive win in the JLT, does not make other people’s original assessments wrong.
He did jump poorly in his prep race and he did make a couple of mistakes in his schooling session. These were notably ironed out and in need of a good ironing they were.
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