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That was Dunne’s opinion, I don’t recall anyone else supporting it. Dunne for some reason took a dislike to her and maybe it was a race incident but there are ways to address this, certainly not his way.
The more I know the less I understand.
“Few in this game would cut off their nose to spite their face because of chauvinistic dogma.”
The University of Liverpool study found otherwise:
https://theconversation.com/betting-on-female-jockeys-can-bring-greater-rewards-but-its-not-all-good-news-194221“there’s better of both genders out there, including Rachel Blackmore, incidentally.”
Is there some sort of internet rule that, in any discussion of Bryony Frost on any forum, at least one person has to pipe up “Rachel is better”? The discussion of a kind exceptionalism in the article I linked to is pertinent to this: and some version of the Smurfette Principle to which the racing media seems somewhat prone. There can only be One.
If anyone asks why Hayley Turner doesn’t get as many rides now, somebody will be guaranteed to say “Oh Hollie is better” and it does my nut in.I don’t know much about that Cork, but I felt she was sometimes overly aggressive on Frodon from the front.
After he won the Badger at Wincanton in November 2022 she tried her luck from the front in almost every race afterwards (the Betfair, KG, Cottswold, Coral Trophy, Bet 365, Badger and KG again).
Just can’t imagine that Frodon was supposed to go and win something from the front at the age of 10 or 11.
Tbf, GAG, I did use the caveat “including.”
I think people do it to illustrate they don’t have anything against female jockeys per se, but do think some are better than others.
It might be to try to prevent accusations of chauvinism – but if so it clearly does nothing of the kind.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"https://www.hri.ie/statistics/jockey
Irish NH jockeys championship top 100. Yay Rachel! She’s in the top 10. Then look further down. Jody Townend is at #38- by dint of bumper winners mostly. How many rides has she been given over fences?
Maxine O’Sullivan is next at #78 with 3 winners. Then Phidelma Elvin, Aine O’Connor and Sarah Kavanagh at 78, 86 and 93 with 2 winners each. So 6% of the top 100 professional jockeys here are female and if you exclude the Smurfette and Paul’s wee sister (who I’d love to see given more chances over obstacles) , none in the top 50. Hardly the brave new world of opportunity.“I think people do it to illustrate they don’t have anything against female jockeys per se”
That’s exactly why they do it as explained in that article. Nobody actually wants to believe they’re subconsciously a bit sexist or racist or whatever. Everyone likes to think their decisions are based on logic. “Look, I’m not sexist, I think Rachel is good” is an example of exception making, the Not Like Other Girls thing. Bryony is almost always compared (negatively) with Rachel on these threads when it would make more sense to compare her ability and opportunities with those directly above and below her in the British jockeys’ table, or with British jockeys who get a similar number of rides, or British jockeys based in the south west, or other 2nd/3rd jockeys for big British stables. But nope gotta compare her with the stable jockey for a marquee trainer in Co Waterford. Because vaginas.
Male or female they are jockeys, they compete against each other so their gender should be irrelevant.
The more I know the less I understand.
https://www.hri.ie/statistics/trainer
Top 100 NH trainers in Ireland. 4 of which are female as far as I can see, and with the tendency towards superyards of >200 horses in training, I don’t think female trainers are going to be flourishing any time soon. You might get a an Irish Gai Waterhouse at some stage I suppose, but she’s not gonna be in a big queue for the ladies’ loos at the award dinners.
ERL, Frodon had proven success as a front runner, and it has also been a style that Frost performs well with.
I see no reason why she should change this approach because he was older, and would be very doubtful Frodon could have achieved better placings ridden differently. His worst runs were where he struggled to be prominent e.g. the Ultima in 2022.
When she won the KG on Frodon it looked to me like a master class of waiting in front.
She slowed it down – Shan Blue was faster in the Feltham – before kicking for home and gaining a decisive advantage.
Bryony rode them all to sleep that day.
Surprising, then, that she went far too fast this season, casting doubt on whether her previous apparent stroke of tactical genius was anything of the sort.
She’s a decent jockey – insert comparable male jockey here for comparative purposes to keep the ferocious Germaine “GAG” Greer at bay! – but not top class in my book.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"It’s up to owners and trainers who rides their horses and just as in other walks of life its their preferences that prevail. Dunne winning for Henderson maybe a wee pointer to how things are,right or wrong. **** happens and life goes on. Noticeable how only Rachel and hollie at the top level though. The main owners are old school and old school prevails.
@greenasgrass very insightful.
It’s simply not up for debate that women can ride horses as well as men in other equestrian sports. They win championships / medals on the international stage.
“She’s a decent jockey – insert comparable male jockey here for comparative purposes to keep the ferocious Germaine “GAG” Greer at bay! – but not top class in my book.”
Way to undermine a valid point 🤔.
I’m not seeking to undermine anyone’s point – merely a light-hearted remark, one of many I make here, to contributors of all genders.
I don’t see any bias here at TRF.
All I see are some who, like me, don’t believe in positive discrimination.
As stated, I’ve followed her career closely, and made good money backing some of her winners.
I just think that, when it comes to the money-driven decision of which jockey to book to try to win prize-money and/or land a gamble the majority will set aside any silly chauvinism they might harbour and book the statistically best available.
And tbh, even if a few stupidly don’t, it’s their horse and their money, so it’s up to them.
The reason why many cite Rachel Blackmore and Hollie Doyle is to illustrate that gender isn’t an obstacle to top-flight success if you’re talented enough – it’s obviously no use using a male jockey to make that point as they are of a different gender.
Hence my light hearted remark (probably my 50th here this year already) in the course of an interesting discussion.
Should more female jockeys be at the level of Blackmore and Doyle than is the case?
Tbh, I’m unsure – I happen to think it’s a less-than-vintage era for jockeyship generally under both codes, I don’t see anyone of the calibre of Lester Piggott and Steve Cauthen on the Flat, or anyone as good as John Francome or Tony McCoy over Jumps, that should create breakthrough opportunities for young jockeys of either gender.
If it’s not happening the brutal truth might have nothing to do with gender bias and everything to do with, whether you’re male or female, if you are quite good enough.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"This thread isn’t about positive discrimination. It’s about whether Bryony is getting the number of *rides commensurate with her ability.
Which is why the comparison with competitors (of any gender) at her level of ability is relevant.
Well, it might help to define her level of ability relative to other jockeys (of any gender) agreed.
Some use crude measures like win strike rates to assess jockeys, others use winners above or below “expected” (measured by betting market position and/or form).
I think she’s a good jockey – if I owned jumpers I’d have no qualms about booking her if I considered her the best available.
But I’d need to see stats that conclusively demonstrated she’s not getting the rides her statistical performance merited before believing she is victim of an ongoing bias in the wake of the Dunne incident.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"The Irish figures need more context. How many women are trying to become jump jockeys in Ireland etc. I expect it is far fewer than men.
Even if they make it, how many winners will they realistically ride unless they are regularly riding for Mullins, Elliot, De Bromhead or O’Brien?
Trainers are not going to book someone just to meet a diversity quota.
The figures go some way to proving Kevin Blake’s argument about Rachael Blackmore: that from a statistical point of view, she needs to be treated as an outlier because she is not just better but massively better than the other female jockeys.
Blake suggested women jockeys should receive a weight allowance and was shouted down for being patronising. But perhaps he has a point.
There is plenty more that could be said but this subject is a minefield and far too easy for words to be twisted and taken out of context.
All I will say is: who should be giving Bryony Frost rides but is not now? David Walsh has not said and none of her other supporters have either. There was another article about her in the Racing Post yesterday, which makes me wonder if some sort of campaign is going on.
Definitely a nightmare, as there are some in such debates who, if you’d don’t agree with their every word and ask for statistical evidence, will label you a chauvinist or even misogynist – subconscious or otherwise – in a heartbeat.
I happen to think racing is one of the few sports where women can compete with men on equal terms – though admittedly because the horse does most of the work.
But unlike football and athletics, there is no gender segregation and that speaks volumes for the calibre of female jockeys generally.
I don’t think a weight allowance would be appropriate – apart, perhaps, from sheer physical strength in a finish, I don’t see any obvious other area where a male physique has the edge on a female one in raceriding.
Strength in a finish is usually marginal and might be covered by a pound and is a 1lb gender allowance for riders actually worth implementing given the furore it would cause?
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"
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