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There is a resurgence of interest in classical battle dressage, and things like real tennis and lacrosse.
Yes, as I drive into Birmingham of a morning, there are kids playing real tennis on every corner and the pavements are choked with people hurrying so as not to be late for their classical battle dressage classes.
What I am saying is that most women WILL be soon wearing suspenders etc. they always WANTED too among the working and upper classes but got ridiculed and insulyed by the petot bourgeois women.
Extraordinary that in your omnipotence, you are able to speak, not only for the entire countryside, but for all women as well. I simply don’t recognise your description of millions of working class women terrified of what the lower middle class might think. In my experience, modern working class women wear what they want and do what they want and they don’t give a f*** what anyone thinks
Doesn’t matter who coined it, the phrase, ‘New Traditionalism’ is still vacuous piffle. You say it isn’t just soundbites, but its precisely the kind of phrase that you would hear from New Labour, with the same sort of lack of substance you’d expect from New Labour. What does it actually mean? It means, apparently, fashion designers, architects and artists drawing on the past for inspiration. It means people rediscovering older ways of living. That’s being going on for centuries. Nothing new there.
Everyone used to laugh at me and Mr Ryall and Paul Nicholls and Andy from Dick reynolds and Charlie mann wearing those outrageous 30s plaid big caps…now they all want them.
Do they? Everyone? Round where I live, its pretty much tracksuits and baseball caps, with optional hoodies.
Silk top hat prices have gone through the roof and it is a real faux pas to wear a grey topper.
Nothing worse in a Wolverhampton pub than to wander in wearing a grey topper. Oh the humiliation. And don’t even get me started on the price of silk top hats. You can’t get them in BHS for love nor money.
Debretts Guide and Elegance by Dariaux are among the surprise selling books this year.
Really? Had a look at Bookseller.com and struggled to find them in the UK top 50. Bit puzzled by this, until I realised I’d misread your post. You’re right. It is a surprise that they are selling this year.
oh and ps. Maybe you had better come to out PT to PT dinner dance or Chepstow for our next fashion show if you think women don’t wear suspenders etc any more.
Thanks for the invitation, old chap, but you miss the point. Where did I say that I thought women don’t wear them? I simply had one eyebrow raised at your contention that all women want to wear them and are prevented from doing so. ÂÂÂ
As I’ve said before, you make some interesting and thought-provoking arguments, as do the Daily Mail and the Telegraph from time to time. But the point at which I usually put the paper down, shake my head and return to the real world is when people start talking about a revolution that will once and for all put everything back the way it was in the 1950s/1930s/1830s/1730s (choose your own date).
It ain’t going to happen. What you quote as evidence are merely the surface ripples of fashion amongst a small group of people desperate to latch on to what they feel is the latest thing. It has bugger all to do with working class people and it will all blow over when minimalism or retro-chic or futurism, or whatever become the next big thing.
It is a British trait to be permanently predicting doom and the destruction of civilisation as we know it. We have been doing it for centuries and its a useful safety valve. And to be honest, anyone with half a brain can make a list of things that are wrong with Britain today. But real solutions? Well they are thin on the ground. What you write is entertaining and diverting. But its no more than that. Fox-hunting, stockings and suspenders and haute couture are not going to change anything.
(Edited by Aranalde at 9:16 pm on Aug. 23, 2006)
You are not correct if you do not mind me saying.
While the petit borgeois play with pseudo intellectual arguments of power and opression, there are other people who have vision.<br>These are the people who change society for the better.<br>Romantcism, Clascism, Victorian Gothic, realism,Impressionism, dadaism, Surrealism, Bauhaus, <br>Furturism, haute couture, and other visionary cultural movements brought beauty and change.
People in Wolverhampton go around with baseball caps and sprtswear becuse global industry have been busy flogging them synthetics. It is couture’s fault for abandoning the idea of elegance in the late 80’s(….it was they who put trainers on the catwalk) But it is back.
it must stop; all this using of non renewble resources. because it IS destroying the planet.<br>You had better check my links and hear what the Inuit are saying. the scale of damage to the arctic is GREATLY underated.<br>Polar bears are starving because the ice is not freezing and Blair and his friends and Paul mccartney criticize the inuit for hunting seal. That sucks.
If you think Conservationists are going to stand by and let that happen just so kids can have trainers every week in Wolverhampton  think again. Not to mention the vast hole it is making in the British economy by importing crap from China. Or the damage that our IKEA/habitat shop evey sunday and buy new laminate flooring despite what is doing to south american habitat<br>is going to continue for long forget it.
This is a movement; just in its infancy. It will produce Art, Couture, Architecture; and bring a benign atitude to other cultures and land management.
The age of raping the wilderness for oil, palm oil, coffee, sugar, and wood are over.
Geldof’s stupidity may have held it up for a moment but <br>Africa has to return to a hunting culture for income or we wipe out habitat for crap. South Africa is already doing it with vast big game reserves and the WWF are following suit not just in Africa but Siberia too. Already Tiger numbers are strating to climb painfully slowly but significanyly because of sable hunting reserves.
http://www.panda.org/about_wwf/what_we_ … wsID=14073
<br>http://www.panda.org/about_wwf/where_we_work/europe/news/on_the_ground/index.cfm?uNewsID=13895
<br>If it is to work fur must come back into fashion and every couture house knows that.
Foxhunting ban has to be lifted or we face the permanent destruction of the British countryside:
http://www.kent.ac.uk/anthropology/dice … vation.pdf
As for fashion we must move back to materials produced from infinitely renewable resources : ie animals.<br>that is why tweed too is in vogue with couture houses.<br>No it isn’t happening on the streets yet. But it will ten years down the line.
Everybody laughs, nervously, at couture…then follows years later. It is called the avant garde; and what the avant garde movements say people follow years later, takes it a while to sink in.
It can happen on a street level itself; hence punk; a massive influence on society. Came from nowhere; and was not in the control of the record companies at first.
Now the new traditionalism is in black RandB and hip hop culture. Look at Beyonce’s House of dereon’s site and tell me that is not so. Poor people are sick to the back teeth of being drab. People in Liverpool…see them dress up to go clubbing. Not a polyester anorak or trainer in sight.
<br>Hence when impressionists first exibited, they were laughed at as poor fad. And we all know what happened there.
Kids on the streets are STILL being influenced today by the work of Shelley, Stoker and Byron; but they have probably never heard of them. We wouldn’t have Goths if it were not for that massive contribution to our culture.<br>Let alone the great architecture of the voctorian gothic period.<br>Go to Prague and see the architecture there. it was invaded so much and each change brought new ideas on buildings it is incredible.<br>they lauged at Gaudi…go to Barcelona.
ALL great architecture comes from such intellectual movements.
ALL great literature does too.
But never before has the planet depended on it.
The age of synthetics is over. The waste of energy must stop. Cameron knows that; Blair just sees it as an excuse  to raise tax on 4x4s
In 50 years time we could all be riding horses again. It is that serious.
This is no soundbite.
And if you think this is not going to affect the working class you are profoundly wrong.<br>Maybe you should have looked up the book "Elegance" by Kathleen Tessaro. That was a bestseller. it is a rehash of dariaux’s book.
You may want to look up Jack Vettriano too; so influential he has even had a South Bank show devoted to him. There is one of his prints in nearly every working class home; they but his cards by the million. They depict the elgance of working class dress years ago. People yearn it again.
But it doesn’t stop there. Chritsine Aguillera’s "Ain’t no other man" video is very Vettriano.<br>She comes on in fur and all the guys are in 30’s clothes. there is smoking in it too shock horror; as in most of vettriano’s work.
This is what avant grade movements do. They question; then people say…yes eventually; that is correct. Damien Hirst is a petit bourgeois businessman not an artist; he has no swelling idea behind him or in front of him.
Thatcher and her "victorian values" yes that was groundless soundbite. As Blair and his education education education.
If you think the New traditionaism will have no impact on society in years to come; you will be in for a shock.
People have turned their back in droves on Kempton’s all weather but the point to point scene is thriving. Most of us west of bath like our racing with a bit of rawness not factory farmed races just for betting.
Look at the surging interst in American steeplechasing and the Velka pardubicka. These are real, traditional races, not business whims. We need our heritage; all of us who do not share Blair’s vision with its AR agenda and a manifesto for the "timid breath of the clerk" and the greed of global indutsry ; back.
And as for the food industry; the transport fo food across the globe so we can have unsesasonal veg produced to the detriment of indigenous cultures must stop too. We must …and are…going back to farmer’s markets. start buying yout pheasant from a shoot instead of terrible tasteless battery farmed chicken from the far east ; the production of which threatens avain flu.<br>I could go on but you get the drift.
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I am in no way supporting globalisation and would agree with a lot of what you say. I would agree that there is a move towards conservation as people start to realise the state this planet is in and its an important development.
However, the links between this very real phenomenon and the ‘cultural’ revolution of which you speak seem rather tenuous. Romanticism produced many great works of art and literature. So far, all that ‘New Traditionalism’ seems to have produced is a few new fashion collections and the odd pop video. There is nothing of any quality or lasting significance. I’m well aware of how the avante guard works. I just don’t see any evidence that ‘New Traditionalism’ is anything more than a passing fad.
But we could go round and round on this subject. You think ‘New Traditionalism’ is going to change our society. I remain sceptical. Lets come back in ten years and see who was right.
But as for the more significant issue of conservation, completely agree. We need to radically change the way we treat the earth. The use or not of furs is not the main issue. I would have thought our use of fossil fuels is more significant, but I am by no means an expert on this.
Just one more observation. The main reason why working class people buy processed food is because it is cheap and convenient. If you live in the centre of Birmingham, popping along to buy your pheasant from the local shoot is not an option. It will take a real effort from government to make locally produced food available at a price that will enable the mass of people to take advantage of it. Then you really will have a revolution. The end of Tesco!
(Edited by Aranalde at 9:06 am on Aug. 24, 2006)
There are some ideas of common ground here.
Lets work on those.<br>Firstly your last point, and then I will tell you why your assertions that its is okay for working class people to buy cheap is NOT acceptable ,  and  that fur and couture<br>are important.<br>Supermarkets have had a great deal of influence on governments of both shades.<br>However, the New Labour model is a very centralised, bureaucratically controlled one which has among other things seen a dreadful change in the way they have handled food production. They have a policy of giving these companies whatever they want because they provide "real jobs". They do not like the small shopkeeper and are completely onstructive to such peopel. Thus supermarkets often get massive rate free periods, or pay no rates at all. But it goes further. The giants compete with eack other to the extent where they sell other things…cheap clothing, lighting, electrical goods,bedding,toys, stationery…even art materials. All crap but cheap. In an endeavour to provide cheaper and cheaper goods including food to secure a big slice of the market they need to import as much as poss from cheap sources in the far east. So the artists canvas they sell is NOT real; the £ 2 t shirt is from China and is rubbish, and the cheap trainers fall apart. Meanwhile the cirner shop, toy shops, art material shops, boutiques selling quality clothes in the high street,and all sorts of other traditional little businesses have gone under. Just coincidence is it in what I am about to tell you that Labour’s biggest donations have come from the animal rights movement and a Supermarket giant?
But the FOOD policy actually encourages things like unseasonal veg, expolitation of the third world cheap production and factory farming at expense of habitat.<br>Then to compete our farming goes factory, our abbatoirs under central government control  become centralised, and more and more land is taken form traditional farming for intensive crops and urban development.<br>If you think this is not realted to foxhunting I would raise an eyebrow at that naivity. The Global supermarkets and the Govvernment want to crush british animal farming. It uses land that could be more profitably useed for something else. But banning hunting was an integral part of that because most farming people could adapt by changing to horse dependence. Livery yards grew. Again that helped conserve the countryside. So horse culture had to be crushed aswell. So it is a covert policy to crush the countryside, and use the third world to provide food. Cheap chickens, plantation crops, and all sorts of non indigenous crops from Africa, encouraged by either utter naivity or cynical management, the Fair Trade movement.<br>All to boost the profits of global industry.<br>Doubt me? Ask yourself what Heinz endowments are involved in the Tides foundation and all the dodgy AR and eco movements for? Destroying animal dependant economies is my theory.
http://www.activistcash.com . Look it up for yourself. The Tides Foundation. Allegedly standing for "sustainible development" by which they mean nicking land off traditional animal use to exploit to make their profits last another 100 years. Global industry in league with animal rights. It’s a range war. The vast majority of the planet is given over to use by animal dependent economies, so they have to be ruthlessly crushed by having a policy of "ethical treatment" which means exterminating the lot of them.
Most supermarket foods, cosmetics etc now contain palm oil. That is the biggest threat to apes, leopards etc<br>ever. It has been identified by Friends of The Earth as such. And the WWF .And reluctantly now, greenpeace.
The same goes for all our cheap crappy furniture and the wasteful consumption of it. Remember when you used to have your Nan’s barley twist table? Ah well see that is old fashioned now so chuck it out and buy a new one from the many out of town shopping centres, and do the same three years later when it falls to bits, and <br>then buy another. Well all that cuts down forests. So again we have to go back to using traditional furnirure that last and is beautifully crafted instead of the trendy wasteful ever changing fad culture we have at the moment.
The Sami have three products. Reindeer skin , fish and  fox etc furs.<br>They are the people of those forests.<br>http://www.arcticphoto.co.uk/supergal/sjm/sjm00/sjm0004-21.htm<br>http://www.arcticphoto.co.uk/supergal/sjm/sjm00/sjm0008-01.htm<br>http://www.arcticphoto.co.uk/gallery2/arctic/peoples/sami/kk0037-10.htm<br>http://www.arcticphoto.co.uk/supergal/sjm/sjm00/sjm0006-13.htm
These people and peoples all over the world and their animal dependance is all that stands between salvation and oblivion for the planet.<br>The option for income of all of them is simple…continue with their lives as normal…or adapt to what global indutry wants from them…oil, trees, gas, etc in the horth and out of season broccoli, coffee and palm oil in Africa, gm soy in Argentina etc. Sod all that we have to support their traditional use.<br>Now when you have a government and a media controlled by simplistic analysis for mass consumption, bribed by an animal rights movement that has arisen purely out of coincidence with the fact global industry wants these other resources…it is going to be an uphill battle to fight. But fought it must be, and now real conservationists are taking up the cause, but it is a diffeicult consept for the average person who likes animals to grasp that you can conserve them by killing them sustainably, as we have always done until now when we have "alternatives".
This is a bit complex but shows you how conservationists are coming to this conclusion;<br>http://www.grida.no/ecora/pdfb/rfrs/rfrsakh0202.doc
it is a conservationist report which advocates support of sustainable animal resources as the best way to presve habitat. It is exactly the same as foxhunting in the UK.
If we get rid of tradtional animal dependant economies <br>then we destroy animlas for good. It is that simple. <br>That is why 400 designers have used fur in their collections this year, and other fabrics like tweed silk and wool are back in fashion at the expense of polyester and vinyl.
So fur is a big issue. And the hysterical politics of envy and grossly exagerated animal welfare arguments must stop. The Cree have an incredible conservation record in their lands and have single handedly saved  beaver becuase they need them to sell for fur (and eat) . They have continually resisted logging on their lands but lost 20% in the last few years. I would suggest this is a direct result of the anti fur movement. Now we have Anne Widdecombe wanting to break a years old treaty to supply a small number of bearskins to the Guards and NOBODY in the media or Parliament is questioning the ethics of that. That is a f*****g outrage when they conserve the firests so there are still bear there in the first place. A culture which doesn’t have any bears left because of urbanisation wanting to criticise those that preserve their habitat but kill them now and again.
Now where does the New Traditionalism come in?
Well, as I said it is not a few courure houses it is 400 of them. Scumbags like Ralph Lauren have broken ranks to climb oon the media whore bandwagon of PETA’s publicity machine. But most stay. Karl Lagerfield is admant to protect fur; and he is one of the biggest influenses in fashion. Dior Gucci and Chanel are backbones too. Fur is back to stay and it has to be.
In popular terms there are media stars who endorse it under tremebdous pressure from PETA. <br>But perhaps one of the most invredible demonstrations of this was this year at the Eurovision song contest.
Lordi drew loads of complaints from ignorant half wits by taking the stage in rendeer fur cloaks. they are finnish. I do not know for sure, but I think this may have been a show of solidarity with the Sami. New Traditionalism at work .
Sorry to go on. Can you imagine the bollicking I give people who make snide comments in the supermarket or the furniture stores on the odd time we go for having a go at my girlfriend for wearing fur? She has a sheared beaver made from Cree pelts. These animals cannot be farmed and are eaten. And they stand there in trainers and polyester cagoules and acrylic jumpers made from oil with a flat pack of flooring made from half the Brazilian rainforest and a trolley full of palm oil and £2 frozen chickens reared horrendously. It leaves them open mouthed.<br>Never get it at the National Hunt races though …no problem there with fur and a cultural empathy with those who produce it. Look at the yakut and navajo  fox hats on the women. They are often wearing those as a statement. Again the New Traditionalism in action.
Go to Cheltenham countryside day and see the sea of tyweed and fur around the winners enclosure; something of a "quaintly" amusing sight for many urban <br>vistors.<br>Well watch out this year; you may get red paint chucked on your polyester grey Burton’s suit.
And the masses that flock to supermatkeys must change their ways. my guess is that supermatkets will adapt to the New traditionalism. They already are. Marks and Spencers made a TV ad proclaiming the woners of fresg local British strawberries and did a promotion for them with wine or something. When I went there, there were huge piles of strawberries ….but they were produce of the USA. I threw them about looking for a British pack without sccess and then had a frilly on them tere and then.
How much did it cost…in terms of money and in terms of <br>damage to the environment through fuel, to get them to every MadS in the UK?<br>Now I do not mind American strawberries as such, but let’s pay the true price for them eh?<br>Likewise, supermarkets are going to HAVE to come under pressure over the sly way they buy fish from fleets who are not obeying the conservation restrictions.<br>Ther is NO NEED for the fishing indutries in the UK and cabada and Norway etc to suffer. If supply is low, the price should rise…dramatically. There should be a tax on cod and that money go straight to the fishermen . Their communities…and the cod…should not have to suffer because of unethical competitive practices. See I ain’t all Tory…you won’t see that on the Daily Mail.
the consumer should HAVe, and will have, to pay the REAL price of food production. We CANNOT justify our levels of obesity…caused by consumption of meat, fish chicken etc three times a day and palm oil and sugar destroying habitats, and sit on our ass telling the Inuit they are cruel for killing seal. We should be paying £10 for a decent piece of cod. We should be paying £20 for a chicken. We should be paying massive money for out of season veg, and we should BAN all palm oil from new plantations. These would really help animal welfare.
And reflect the true price of our greed in the price at the tills will stop habitat erosion. <br>What will happen? Well MAYBE we will have to just have a joint or a chicken on a sunday and RIGHTFULLY be thankful for it. Rest of the week we will have to make do with black pudding and a bit of liver like we used to. Eat fish on friday.<br>Have jam on toast the rest of the week. That we make ourselves from fruit we grow in the garden or allotment  providing food for caterpillars and hedgehogs too.
If you don’t hear from me much in the future you know the supermarkets have asked Blair to have MI6 bump me off!
It is a lie to suggest tax on 4x4s is going to have any impact on the damge we are doing to the planet. that is just another excuse to hit the rural people who need them. It will be counter productive anyhow. Instead of a 4×4 and a trailer, people will have to use a horsebox. Far more damaging in terms of fuel consumption.
This Government are fully compliant in helping destroy the planet. They have hastened it. All the talk is just about tax raising revenue for their empty coffers. <br>Cameron at least has a working team discussing these issues with people like Zac Goldsmith of greenpeace …who would bitterly diasgree with me on many issues but hey, I haven’t made my fortune by f***** the planet like his family have. I hope he has some New traditionalist conservationists on there too.
I must thank you fir stucking with this Armande and having a go at debunking it.<br>There is one more thing. The resurgence of interest in classical battle dressage. <br>Heard of the Vienna Riding school? Kladruby Stud? You may think it  strange nowadays that General Patton fought his way to those places to liberate the horses. <br>That is how important they once were. They are again…they fire the public imagination. No, people are not hurrying to their classical battle dressage classes; but they are packing out shows that visit to see the mighty Lipizzaners kick ass with those moves. That is what it is. A lot more public interest in that than at the all weather racing at Kempton. If they put on a Lippizaner demo they may get a crowd.
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I will tell you why your assertions that its is okay for working class people to buy cheap is NOT acceptable
I made no such assertion. I have paid you the courtesy of trawling through your increasingly long-winded posts, do me the courtesy of reading mine.
Its an interesting and slightly bonkers theory you have. But as with most of your posts to date you provide no evidence. You may think that fox hunting was banned because of a conspiracy involving major food companies, the government and animal rights groups in order to destroy ‘horse culture’. Hell, anything is possible and I’m happy to keep an open mind. But you’re going to have to do better than that to convince me. You have a theory. That’s nice. Theories are ten a penny on internet forums. I tend not to take them seriously.
As far as I can make out, New Traditionalism, which you claim is the avant guard of some great new movement along the lines of Romanticism, consists of fashion designers using fur and one or two pop stars wearing basques and suspenders. Hardly earth-shattering stuff. And we also learn that tweed and fur are popular at National Hunt meetings. Well blow me down, who’d have thought. Man the barricades everyone, we have a revolution on our hands.
Like I say, in full agreement with a lot of what you say on conservation and on the need for us to pay the true price of food. But I really don’t see how its going to happen. Its all very well saying the ‘masses’ must do this and the ‘masses’ must do that but the fact will remain that a single mother with three kids living in the inner city is going to go for the cheapest food possible. In order to change people’s eating and shopping habits, you’re going to have to come up with a way to make this food affordable and to persuade busy people with two jobs, a mortgage and three kids that they should change. And waffling on about fox-hunting, point-to-point meetings, stockings and suspenders and vague conspiracy theories involving animal rights groups and food companies ain’t going to do it.
Like I said in my previous posts, you are long on rhetoric and you make some good points about what is going on in Britain today. But you offer no solutions, other than, presumably, the reintroduction of fox-hunting. All that will happen if you make people pay the true price for food is that poorer people will have a smaller range of foods from which to choose. You and I may think the principle is desirable but the practice is unworkable and political suicide. And the bottom line is that if one of the two main parties don’t adopt it , it won’t happen. Can’t see the media-friendly Blair or Cameron travelling round the marginals merrily telling people why they should pay more for their food. Unless of course, you’re planning a coup. In which case, let me know so I can get down to London and watch.
Most people in this country live in towns and cities. You may wish it were different, you may fantasise about a pre-Industrial golden age in which we all knew our place and tugged our forelock when ‘im from the big ‘ouse trotted past. But no-one is going to vote for it. The genie of disrespect is out of the bottle. Respect these days has to be earned. It isn’t automatically granted to anyone with a title, a big house or a government job. When parents and teachers struggle to get respect from their teachers, what hope have a bunch of fur-wearing point-to-pointers got?
Now national hunt racing, point to pointing and all that  is clearly important to you, and its great to read the passion with which you espouse these activities (on other threads). But the reality is that point to point to most working class people means f*** all.
And, with all due respect, if I wanted to spend my spare time reading about the destructive influence of industry and lamenting a lost world, I’d rather read Blake.
Strangely enough, Pol Pot had similar ideas about getting everyone back on the land, and coincidentally disposing of all the middle-classes. Stalin wasn’t too keen on the bourgeois either.
Some of the greatest writers and artists this country has produced were sons and daughters of bourgeois parents. Yes its fun to have a pop at middle-class values from time to time, but its wearing a little thin now.
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(Edited by Aranalde at 9:42 pm on Aug. 24, 2006)
Heard of the Vienna Riding school? Kladruby Stud?
Nope. Never heard of it. And I would wager most people haven’t either. Which is sort of my point.
The petit bourgois produce great artists?<br>they should all the money on education invested in them, but they do not.
Most great artists come from the aristocratic or the working classes. Not all agreed; but far more than one should expect.
It is a bit tough on people that they ARE going to have to pay more for their food and go back to local production but it is vital or we will destroy ourselves.
It doesn’y matter a damn that the worling classes do not vare about point to pointing…but you shoul, come to a welsh point to see that is wrong anyway….it is a socail manifeststion of rural culture.
Most people may live in towns and cities and THAT is where they should stay. Nobody wants them wandering into a field where Green Green Desert is and having their faces ripped off.
Where did I say that we had to get them back on the land?
Yes I did exagerate your point about working class people (and I am one) …apologies.<br>However your point about the single mother is one thing; I can empathise with that. I cannot empathise with the obesity in many families. That is a symptom of western greed. Or all the out of town shopping centres that are bursting at the seams on a sunday consuming vast amounts of non reneable resources. <br>It will have to stop. They key is in the words "non renewable". They are going to run out. And we are running out of room of where to bury the wasteful results of such a fadish and disposable culture.<br>On the food thing…<br>most people live in cities and towms as you say. But most LAND is devoted to animlas and countryside. that is where the prejudice lies. Howver, urban people HVAE to start listening to rural people be they British  farmers and hunting folk, Sami, Inuit, Cree , Evenk or Yakut. We ahave to be able to continue with Traditional practice and resources that are infinitely renewable and the hunting cultures that prtect habitat from intensive use and increasing urbanisation.<br>That is of course, if urban people are truly interested in not only saving animals but also the planet.
Yes it may be a vote loser now. Wait and see what Cameron’s eco team come up with. They will have to take this on board, and sell it to the public. That is their problem not mine.<br>Mine is to tell it how it is. As an artist that is my social function. <br>It is the International year of the Arctic next year. Then Blair will get a mouthful of the same from every Arctic peoples. Our greed is destroying them and the habitats of the North, and they are NOT amused that they have to put up with creeps lkike Paul McCartney telling them they shouldn’t be selling seal fur.
<br> And oh yes….Stalin Lenin Hitler etc were all petit bourgeois. <br>Everyone who worked for them was petit bourgeois in positions of power. They killed the brownshirts and the working class kids that ran soviet councils remember?<br>Then they murdered the aristicarcy and ruthlessly culled the Prussian old guard influence in the Wermacht which is why they inevitably lost the war. All these were petit bourgois revolutions.
Evidence? What of? I said my theory was just a theory; I qualified that I wasn’t making it up that there are lots of coincidences and if tou check out the Tides foundation on the activistcash website you will see that there is some alarming and sinister pointers.<br>I have given you supportibe links on many conservation ideas and initiatives, and shown you people who have reverted or keep their traditional ways. White native people may come as a surprise to many. I can list over 200 tribes just in the Arctic who cover lands that are teeming with wildlife . These people may not be important to British urban dwellers; but it is essential to all our survival that they are supported.That is the way they would like it to stay and do not want us to exploit it now we have exhausted other areas. Urban western civilisation has no right to criticise them.
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(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 10:27 pm on Aug. 24, 2006)
Kladruby stud is the worlds oldest operating stud and has survived world wars and countless invasions.<br>the vienna riding school’s Lipizzaners are hugely popular. Just because you do not know it doesn’y mean it is not so. We cannot wager on it, but I bet you ask any little girl her favourite horse and she will say lipizzaner.
The Spanish riding school of Vienna are coming to Britain this year and they will pack out Wembley and the NEC. There will be far more working class people from Wolverhampton there than ever attend the races there.
http://www.thesapnishridingschool.com
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul1998 … 07318.html
http://www.lgt.com/groip/en/engagement/ … chule.html
The show they do is classical battle dressge.
Courbettes, mezzaires, caprioles.<br>Airs above the ground. They are designed to kill infantry in battle.
My point, fundamentally is that I am uncomfortable with the idea of writing off whole swathes of society, with the idea of putting people in boxes and condemning them. It isn’t a million miles away from saying that all Jews are this or all Muslims are that. Whether or not the leaders of the various revolutions mentioned were Bourgeious themselves, they used these sort of tactics, dehumanising whole groups of people as a prelude tocondemning them to extermination or prison camps on the basis of a social label.
<br>Then they murdered the aristicarcy and ruthlessly culled the Prussian old guard influence in the Wermacht which is why they inevitably lost the war. All these were petit bourgois revolutions
Not sure what you mean by ‘culling influence’. Hitler (the former artist :o ) asked the old guard to swear loyalty to him which they happily did because they saw their fortunes on the rise. It was the Prussian old guard’s spinelessness in failing to stand up to Hitler that prolonged the war till 1945. That and the cock-up at Arnhem.
But let’s not re-enact the Second World War. I think we would probably be testing the patience of the other forumites :biggrin:
Plenty of common ground in your last post, which if I may say was by some distance your best. No mention of New Traditionalism or suspenders, just common sense. And that is of course that if the planet goes the way that most people (Clarkson and Bush aside) believe, we will be forced to change the way we live. This is my fear I suppose. I really can’t see people changing their lifestyles until the end really is nigh, by which time it may be too late.
And, in the spirit of apology, I must admit to and apologise for, exaggerating your point. You aren’t expecting us all to rush into the countryside and start working the land or attending point to points and yours is not the viewpoint of the crusty landowner wanting to turn society back.
On the farming side of things (and I appreciate I am far from an expert on this, so my points will take the form of questions) do farmers share some of the blame? I’m thinking of the ripping out of hedgerows and the use of intensive farming methods? Or this is just the big landowners? And on a similar point, what is the distribution of land these days – what proportion of farming land is owned by the really big landowners? Would be genuinely interested to find out.
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The Spanish riding school of Vienna are coming to Britain this year and they will pack out Wembley and the NEC. There will be far more working class people from Wolverhampton there than ever attend the races there.
Not really a fair comparison. Most of the racing at Wolverhampton is poor fare. You would need to find the Banded racing equivalent of the Spanish riding school and compare the audiences :biggrin:
It was governments and supermarkets and the EEC which pushed farmers into that.
It is a joke that they are now trying to cover their asses by pretending to offer them money to preserve hedgerows.
Hedgerpws are for jumps out hunting. That is what they are for and they shouldn’t need protecting in traditional<br>farming practice.
That is my point. I am ANTI intensive farming.
By the way you should taste Mr Barber’s (seemore business) cheese. It is fabulous. Look for the little writing on the cheese in Sainsbury’s that says "produced on the Barber’s family farm"
let farmers farm and let them get a fair price for their superb animal husbandry. You will taste the difference.<br>And it will stop ADD in kids immediately. No steroids. but a chicken should cost £20/£25. Let the farmer charge for that. it is NOT farmers who are being subsidised by the EEC…it is CONSUMERS and the EEC brueacracy itself.
Let  us get rid if battery farms and go back to how we keep chickens in the countryside. We keep them mostly cos we like having them around (I keep saying we but i live in the middle of a town centre…but I see how it s done cos of the horses) and because they lay the odd superb eggs. But we had three of our own (until the fox got them) and they cost about £1 a week to keep. So how the hell can you buy ant sort of decent chicken for less than £20. I wouldn’t touch it because that means awful welfare and steroids and chemicals. <br>Why on earth did the government ban mink farming; one of the highest animla wefare standards, and allow battery farms to continue? Nothing to do with animla welfare is it? No you cannot keep mink cramped in a box they will cannibalise, wreck each others fur etc as will any stress. So WHY did Labour, on a TERRIFYING abuse of their power on totally unconstitutional grounds ban mink farming? They did it on grounds of PUBLIC MORALITY. That is such scary fascist talk. Nobody cared as it only affected about 100 people. But imagine what eles they can do on such grounds. We can’t do s**t like that in Britain; it is outrageous and again went unchallenged by our USELESS press.
do you really prefer Mand S selling big pants to the lovely corset and and susssies that they used to?:o :biggrin: <br>Yes I wrote a lot of that humorously; but the rise of Victoria’s Secret as a fashion house and their tremedous commercial success at giving women beautiful and expensive lingerie bears yestimony to waht I am talking about. Tap them in your search engine or do a survey of any woman in your street under 30. That is why it is called the NEW traditionalism. It is young people that are embracing couture, stockings, fogeyish clothes etc etc.<br>Yes it is at the races and clubs and things at the moment<br>that it manifests itself but you watch…I bet Mand S do a covert coat for men next year and do corsets and suspenders at Christmas again.
Quality and tradition and heritage is coming back across the board in everything from food to clothes to Art.
Hitler was a crap artist. That is because he was petit bourgois!:biggrin: :o
I am not advocting we round up townies and put them in gas chambers; just that they stop criticsing the management of land and use of animals, and our natural produce and habitat conservation. Every rural culture is under attack the world over. Thankfully conservationists are now saying WHOAW!
They came up with the phrase and I think the avant garde are saying yes! They are correct! let us go back to supporting the old traditions! And it is they that will see that we go with it in the long run… the arbiters of style, Art, and indeed in the end…commerce.
You can male a lot of money if you are a supermarket and say "taste the difference. this is REAL chicken. It is £20 …but it is worth it"
The same will happen in furnishings (look at Versace go in that field!), Architecture, literature,etc.  Art and couture, music (Inuit throat singing was at Glastonbury last year and there is a huge resurgence in country music) it is already happening.
The Times2 today had two pages I was looking at ipposite each other.<br>One was a rave review of the opra "Mazeppa" in Edinburgh. The second was a re ecaluation of the contriburion of "Dirty Harry" to our culture and how important it was….the rugged individual, traditional values, purpose and a tweed jacket (really!)
Not a Tracey Emin or a Mullholland Drive in sight.
(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 11:32 pm on Aug. 24, 2006)
oh yeah<br>and that Dirty harry was criticsed by petit bourgois critcs as being "fascist" when in fact it was the opposite.<br>the writer quoted Clint as saying
"Personnel? That’s for ASSHOLES!"
Maybe that is why those in on "the Swindle" like new labour don’t like him either.
I will let you know when Green Green desert does his first normal dressage competition next year.
I have an awful feeling he will decide it is classical battle dressage.:o
Still; it will be more fun than half the racing at Wolverhampton!!:biggrin:
Actually I quite enjoy it there….with the floddlights and all.And I shouldn’t really slag Kempton without seeing it. <br>However I think they would’ve been better off making a cross country steeplechase course.
I can’t wait for someone to have the sense to do a floodlight jumps course.
If you think what we are talking about is pish you will have a shock in the next ten years or so.
this thread is about New labour.<br>About how poxy they are right?
So as the conversation has gone on….and it has been very interesting and not at my direction but well argued too by Aranalde; to the point where I have had to go into other areas as he wasn’t going to let me get away with a few humorous jibes, it has touched on what is wrong with society itself.  This is why it comes back to Labour being poxy because while they criticise and legislate against rural …and international rural …affairs…they support an economic and wasteful urban society which has made supermarkets monopolise the country, and put one in three people at work for the government, allowed the police to shoot innocent people in the head, <br>and failed utterly to address global warming.
<br>Now all the racehorses in the world are the result of people in rural areas working with animals to a level that most people are not looked after.<br>Meanwhile the government  harrass, make layer upon layer of bureaucracy, and allow the AR movement to become mainstream, banning hunting and making things generally difficult. CONTRAST that with the Irish government approach to rural affairs and then maybe you can see why they finished one two and three in the gold cup and are dominating us. Ot maybe the French way of funding it and their support of their industry and horses that means there are 350 plus courses there. Not well attended you say? there will be 8000 people at Le Pertre in Brittany in a village of 300 this weekend.
Did you see the British jockeys falling all over the place in the national? Maybe they need a spot of hunting in Ireland eh?:o :biggrin: <br>You will not find many trainers jockeys or national hunt owners who do not agree with the bulk of what I am saying by the way.
So THAT is how poxy Labour are.<br>Bad for the countryside.<br>Bad for horseracing.<br>Bad for the economy.<br>Bad for its support of a movement which the US has down on the terrorist watch list (the AR groups)<br>Bad for its parochial moral fascism and racism
And bad for horses. Very bad.
<br>ps of you find something a bore you are not obliged to read or comment. <br>I would think that my experience of painting horses and racing all over the world, being behind the scenes at all sorts of levels, and some of the conclusions I have reached by talking to people , including many native peoples, would be of interest in a racing forum.
Racing is first and foremost about horses and the cultures that produce them.
If you do not understand why it is not relevant to be talking about arctic peoples maybe you should ask the Irish why they have breeding programmes in Mongolia and Siberia. Why they are sending horses to Pardubice.<br>Why Cheltenham are involved in the first international Steeplechasing conventions . Why the French have made a festival of international steeplechasing at Auteuil in November, and why the Sami are running reindeer at St. Moritz.<br>Why Cheltenham are staging harness and dog racing at their meetings, why racecourses have the Hunt at them, and countryside days etc.
Because we must unite are strangely different cultures against the onslaught of urban prejudice led by government like Blair’s is just one reason.
(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 1:25 am on Aug. 25, 2006)
You can male a lot of money if you are a supermarket and say "taste the difference. this is REAL chicken. It is £20 …but it is worth it"
No working class family is going to buy a £20 chicken. That will be the problem.
Architecture, literature,etc. Art and couture, music (Inuit throat singing was at Glastonbury last year and there is a huge resurgence in country music)
You may be right, you may be wrong. But I see little evidence of ‘new traditionalism’ in art, music or literature. Country music has always been popular. When the Inuit throat singers break into the top ten (not that hard to do) let me know.
Anyway, I think we’re going over the same ground again. Conservation, yes. ‘New Traditionalism’, well possibly, but I remain sceptical. Tony Blair? Git. David Cameron? Git in waiting.
Sadly you may end up right about that….the git thing I mean.<br>It is as you suggested earlier not going to be a popular electoral move to make the required changes. At least we will get hunting back though.
We used to pay the equivalent of £20 a chicken and will have to again if we do not want things like avian flu.
A return to traditional animal farming is allegedly what most people want, and is essential to conservation. That means £20 chickens but they will taste good.
And it is an absolute must with fishing. There is no cod left. That is doing a great deal more harm to artctic mammals than any seal hunt.
So it is honest, and correct to have to move away from profir and intensive processes in farming and fishing.
Okay in other things like Architecture, Cinema and pop cultue and literature we are only seeing signs of the same vision. Art though…Vettriano? he is a phenomenon. He is number one best selling Artist in the world…that is people in wolverhampton…aswell as people the world over in cities…buying that.<br>And couture eventually becomes high street.
We will see.
Noah in 2006
In the year 2006, the Lord came unto Noah, who was now living in England <br>and said, "Once again, the earth has become wicked and over-populated, and <br>I see the end of all flesh before me.
Build another Ark and save 2 of every living thing along with a few good <br>humans."
He gave Noah the CAD drawings, saying, "You have 6 months to build the Ark <br>before I will start the unending rain for 40 days and 40 nights."
Six months later, the Lord looked down and saw Noah weeping in his yard<br> but no Ark.
"Noah!" He roared, "I’m about to start the rain! Where is the Ark?"
"Forgive me, Lord," begged Noah, "but things have changed. I needed <br>Building Regulations Approval. I’ve been arguing with the Fire Brigade <br>about the need for a sprinkler system. My neighbours claim that I should <br>have obtained planning permission for building the Ark in my garden <br>because it is development of the site even though in my view it is a <br>temporary structure. We had to go to appeal to the Secretary of State for <br>a decision.
Then the Department of Transport demanded a bond be posted for the future <br>costs of moving power lines and other overhead obstructions, to clear the <br>passage for the Ark’s move to the sea. I told them that the sea would be <br>coming to us, but they would hear nothing of it.
Getting the wood was another problem. All the decent trees have Tree <br>Preservation Orders on them and we live in a Site of Special Scientific
Interest set up in order to protect the spotted owl. I tried to convince <br>the environmentalists that I needed the wood to save the owls – but no go!
When I started gathering the animals, the RSPCA sued me. They insisted <br>that I was confining wild animals against their will. They argued the <br>accommodation was too restrictive, and it was cruel and inhumane to put<br>so many animals in a confined space.
Then the County Council, the Environment Agency and the Rivers Authority <br>ruled that I couldn’t build the Ark until they’d conducted an environmental impact study on your proposed flood.
I’m still trying to resolve a complaint with the Equal Opportunities <br>Commission on how many BMEs I’m supposed to hire for my building team.
The trades unions say I can’t use my sons. They insist I have to hire only <br>CSCS accredited workers with Ark-building experience.
<br>To make matters worse, Customs and Excise seized all my assets, claiming <br>I’m trying to leave the country illegally with endangered species.
So, forgive me, Lord, but it would take at least 10 years for me to finish this Ark."
Suddenly the skies cleared, the sun began to shine, and a rainbow <br>stretched across the sky. Noah looked up in wonder and asked, "You mean you’re not going to destroy the world?
"No," said the Lord. "The government beat me to it."
Thought you might like this……….
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