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A question prompted by Franconia’s disqualification (though would not apply to her). If a filly had won only the one listed race and was subsequently disqualified (assume placed last), would she lose her black type?
It would seem logical to me that the horse’s black type status should reflect the amended result, so the black type could potentially be lost in some situations.
There will no doubt be horses whose careers could be used to verify this, though candidates are not forthcoming in my memory so far…
I wasn’t sure about this, but I also think that the answer is yes, based on Sorbus. Having looked her up, she has only small black type, even though she was first past the post in the Irish Oaks (demoted). There are other mares who have won races that subsequently gained listed status, and they did not retrospectively gain black type, so it’s all a bit subjective anyway (look at the value of Sorbus as a broodmare), but that’s a separate discussion…
Thanks Louise. That sounds sensible to me. I think the grade of the race on the date it took place would apply as the change in grade would only be for future renewals.
If a horse got promoted as a result of a disqualification, I’d expect the black type to reflect this type of change too.
Hi Marlingford, I rather meant that the value of black type is subjective i.e. you are correct about the grade of the race on the day. The actual merit of black type is a different discussion. It’s another peculiarity of TB breeding, that performance in a single contest can mean so much.
Thanks Louise, agree with that.
Perhaps using official rating thresholds would be better, though that would bring in a different set of issues!
Sounds to me like you need to launch another of your quests here Marlingford along the lines of “biggest SP ever” “shortest priced loser ever” – “lowest rated black type horse ever”.
Disappointingly, plugging ‘lowest rated black type horse ever’ into google fails to answer the question.
My money is on the shed to come up trumps.
This might be too difficult even for the shed!
The likely profile we’re looking for is a horse that wasn’t good enough to feature in the International Classifications and might also not ever have been entered for a handicap, so not have an official rating.
If we accept Timeform ratings instead of Official ratings do we take the end of season rating or the rating when they got the black type (which will be less easy to find)? We could use RPR ratings but “only” back to 1986.
I’m just reading a book about de-coding the Enigma machines during WWII – sounds like a walk in the park compared to this
There’s other similar categories that it would be interesting to consider too e.g. “worst” Group 1 winner, “worst” Group 1 race etc.
I’ll stop now!
Those should be a bit easier to identify. Italy no longer has any Group 1 races but certainly in the 1980s it had a few. As I understand it the European Pattern Race Committee upgrades/downgrades races on the basis of the official ratings of the first four runners on a rolling three year basis so once we’ve compiled a list of the downgraded races, the winners in the three years immediately prior to the downgrade would be a good starting point.
For example the Premio Paroli has slipped two rungs, demoted from G1 to G2 in 1996 and then to G3 in 2007. John Dunlop’s Alhijaz was given an RPR of 102 when he won the 1991 renewal but he was rated 124 at best. Dunlop also saddled Sikeston to win in 1988 but there is no RPR recorded for that win.
More work to be done (and in a more systematic way probably), but at least we’ve got something to go on here.
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