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This has cropped up in a couple of threads recently, and I thought it was worth considering separately – and it gives me the chance to sound off!
There seems to be general agreement that moving big races to a Saturday is an objective of Racing For Change (see the Rod Street thread) and that the Cheltenham Gold Cup is a candidate for such a move (see various Cheltenham threads).
I’d like to consider two things – what is the purpose of making such a change, and what is the evidence from races that have been moved in the past.
Concerning the first of those, I’m not at all sure where RFC are coming from – is it to increase the size of the racecourse crowd, to increase the size of the TV audience, or to increase the betting turnover? A clear statement of the objectives for proposing a move to Saturday would help, if only to give us something to get a handle on when debating the case.
More interesting I think is to look at existing evidence. On the flat, I can think of half a dozen major races that have been moved from midweek to Saturday in the past ten to fiften years, ignoring the obvious example of the Derby.
They are the Lockinge at Newbury, the Wokingham and the Golden Jubilee at Royal Ascot, the Stewards Cup at Goodwood, the Ayr Gold Cup and the Dewhurst at Newmarket.
I’d argue that much the most successful of those moves have been the three big sprint handicaps and that provides a clue as to what really works on a Saturday, in terms of TV coverage and betting turnover. The Stewards Cup and the Ayr Gold Cup get massive coverage in the media and are regularly in the top twenty betting turnover races of the entire year. I’d say that both have been more popular since they moved to a Saturday (Ayr Gold Cup used to be on a Friday, Stewards Cup on the Tuesday).
In contrast, moving the Lockinge from Friday hardly seems to have made any difference at all to the popularity of that race, and the Dewhurst seems lost in the midst of Champions Day.
So is this the best way forward – if York want to run a big race on a Saturday, should it be the Ebor rather than the International? Should Cheltenham boost the prize money for County Hurdle and make that the Saturday centrepiece? How about the Chester Cup on a Saturday?
Does the existing success of the Paddy Power Gold Cup, the Hennessey, the Tote Gold Trophy, and whisper it quietly, the Grand National, point to the desirability of a clear program of big Saturday NH handicaps.
Likewise on the Flat, with the Lincoln, Northumberland Plate, Stewards Cup, John Smiths Cup, Cambridgeshire and Cesarewitch forming the basis of a pattern of handicap Saturdays.
It seems to me that whatever the reasons for favouring big races on a Saturday (crowd, TV or betting), all three are satisfied by a big handicap with a guaranteed big field.
AP
It would seem to me both obvious and a truism that big-field ultra-competitive well-endowed handicaps are meat and drink to the weekend punter and racegoer. The Ayr Gold Cup and Stewards Cup seem so ‘natural’ on a Saturday that I’d actually forgotten they used to be run on weekdays. Unlike the Derby.
So yes, if RFC are intent on a wholesale re-shaping of the best meetings then transfer of the big weekday handicaps still extant to a Saturday would make sense and be nearly logical
There’s several 3+ day meetings culminating on a Saturday e.g Glorious, Western, Cambridgeshire which have ‘always been so’ and work well, so I could live with other mid-week multi-dayers being shifted likewise with such as the Chester Cup, Bunbury and Ebor forming the centrepiece of the final Saturday
So is this the best way forward – if York want to run a big race on a Saturday, should it be the Ebor rather than the International
I suppose the question was answered in the post…
As an aside, the betting appeal of the big sprint handicaps does baffle me…but anyway
I suppose that ultimately the class races appeal more to those who will make time to watch them anyway, so theres less of a case for shifting them. I also think that if you are trying to get coverage in the media for the very top horses/connections, maybe mid week makes more sense. The requirement to highlight the sport itself is less required or really feasible for the big handicaps
But is there a case for the top group races on a Sunday?
I’m not convinced by the argument, we need more evidence and facts and figures, like the top 50 betting races from 30 years ago and now, and how much more is bet on these races compared to when they were midweek.
Which type of race do forumites prefer to bet in? The Lockinge or the lottery Ayr Gold Cup where 50% of the preview seems to concern the boring tedious draw.Should we just be concerned on what happens with the individual race such as the Stewards Cup in any case. What if betting on that race itself is more than counteracted by less betting on it’s replacement race on the Tuesday as well as a decline in betting on the other races on that day?
It could be a bit like 48 hour decs, the advocates of them tell us they bring in money from overseas but conveniently forget about how much is lost to the sport by punters backing all the non runners created by them.
Part of the enjoyment of some of these races is a bit of a build up and a bit of the aftermath, how would that be possible if a race like The Chester Cup was moved to a Saturday like yesterday with 5 British, 1 Irish & Meydan? At least part of the race could be on split screen.
I managed to completely miss the Brocklesby live yesterday and that’s only 5fs.
The more races kept midweek the better as far as I’m concerned.A major problem I have is the principle of having TWO Premier meetings on a Saturday, irrespective of whether the centrepiece is either a top handicap or a Group event.
Kempton yesterday is a classic example. I scarcely had a chance to look at the Rosebery (a once top quality race), the Queens Prize (ditto) and the Magnolia because of the Lincoln – the first half of the Spring double, the opening showpiece of the flat, and the centre of attention throughout the week. Plus the small matter of the World Cup.
Glenn’s post today talks about Kempton turnover being a sixth of just one race at Doncaster. I’ll bet Meydan had a higher turnover. Artificial surface or not, those historic races deserve better. It seems to me that the risk of needlessly downgrading otherwise high quality races is unnecessarily high under the new Premier proposals.
A major problem I have is the principle of having TWO Premier meetings on a Saturday, irrespective of whether the centrepiece is either a top handicap or a Group event.
Kempton yesterday is a classic example. I scarcely had a chance to look at the Rosebery (a once top quality race), the Queens Prize (ditto) and the Magnolia because of the Lincoln – the first half of the Spring double, the opening showpiece of the flat, and the centre of attention throughout the week. Plus the small matter of the World Cup.
Didn’t yesterday’s meeting used to form the second day (bank holiday Monday) of Kempton’s Easter Meeting?
Given the Easter Stakes etc are due to be run next Saturday the decision to run the Rosebery etc yesterday seems strange
Next Sunday looks its usual weak self – infact very weak – so rather than a re-instatement to the old Monday why not instigate a new two day Kempers meet in the mould of the new two-dayer at Donny
Two ‘flagship’ Flat meetings over two days on consecutive weekends to herald the new season
Whether races the calibre of these long-standing races are ‘worthy’ of being run on polytrack is not a matter I have any particular opinion about; that’s for you Flat bettors/followers to decide, but if it is now generally viewed as an acceptable and forgiving surface – which I believe it is – then why not? But if it is viewed as a poor surface to punt on for reasons nefarious or otherwise – which Glenn’s fusilade of posts suggest is the case – then maybe not
Part of the problem, Drone is that the good meetings at Kempton – and there are four or five throughout the year which any flat enthusiast would generally enjoy getting stuck into – are tarnished by association with the Class Zero ones, as Glenn points out.
The risk on Saturday was, with all the competition, punters noticed the word "Kempton" in the Racing Post and never bothered looking any further.
I’d be interested to see the live gate. Totally agree with you on next week as a new home, btw.
Wouldn’t Friday evenings be a good time to hold the decent all weather racing? Not much competition from other sports or what’s perceived as more attractive racing on a Saturday. Start of the weekend so the probability of bigger attendances under floodlights and punters with wages in their pockets more inclined to "take a view" and be interested.
Make sense?
The need for AW racing during the turf Flat is another aspect of Wacky Racing that I profess to not fully understanding
particularly at Lingfield which has a perfectly good turf course and possibly Southwell too who to the best of my knowledge have the rather esoteric scenario of two turf Flat fixtures to supplement 10^x AW meets, but given it’s here to stay then it would indeed seem a good idea to try and distinguish it from turf by allocating certain times of the week to stage it, akin to the once-regular Saturday nights at Wolver.Expanding on your idea CR perhaps a BST Mini League of AW on Thursday, Friday and Saturday evenings, for which wholly separate ‘championships’ and awards for jockeys, connections and horses are awarded, none of which count towards turf standings
Am I the only one who sniggered in an ever-so-resigned manner at the first Monday of the ‘Flat’ comprising two AW meetings and a hill-climb in Northamptonshire
No you weren’t Drone.
It’s weird.Cav, its a good idea – certainly better than running the Rosebery on the same Saturday as the Lincoln – but I’m not sure good races succeed at night in this country.
Kempton have run several – including the Dragonfly Stakes, a Listed contest two Wednesdays ago – and with the exception of that lamented Kentucky Derby prep (which attracted a good crowd IIRC), they tend to attract limited interest and publicity.
Could Dunstall Park run the Lincoln Trial and the Wolfrun on the Friday night as an experiment?
I’m not sure good races succeed at night in this country.
No idea what on-course attendance or betting turnover is like but I’ve long had a liking for Brigadier Gerard night at Sandown
Edit:
Having just had a look at last year I see the old two day meeting has been condensed into the one evening with a 0-85, two Group, two Listed and the Whitsun Cup. Shame the Temple Stakes has gone walkabout as they could otherwise have done away with the opening handicap and gone someway towards emulating Champions’ Day
Hmmm
Has this evening five-course feast been well received?
Wouldn’t Friday evenings be a good time to hold the decent all weather racing? Not much competition from other sports or what’s perceived as more attractive racing on a Saturday. Start of the weekend so the probability of bigger attendances under floodlights and punters with wages in their pockets more inclined to "take a view" and be interested.
Make sense?
I’ve been saying similar for ages. In fact I’m pretty sure I’ve said it on here.
It’s clear that alot of racing fans don’t regard AW as ‘real racing’ so why not run it as an entirely separate entity (with glitz & tv money in mind a la 20/20 cricket)?
No idea what on-course attendance or betting turnover is like but I’ve long had a liking for Brigadier Gerard night at Sandown
I always go and the crowd has declined a lot in recent years
The real problem is that there is a surfeit of evening meetings in the area throughout the summer. The really regularly popular one is windsor. will suprise many but its garden party atmosphere does attract a good crowd every monday.
I dont quite understand why kempton doesnt schedule the easter meeting on the monday and sat as before either
I’m sure that Windsor works best because the public know that if it’s Monday it must be Windsor.
Just like the Newmarket Friday night racing/concert meetings, the majority of the crowd is repeat business.
I think this factor also helps the big festival meetings – how many pubs and clubs run a coach trip to Royal Ascot or Glorious Goodwood on the same day every year.
But Sandown keep fiddling around with their schedule to the point that even a committed follower of the sport like myself has no idea when those Group races will be run this year. The only Sandown cards I could pinpoint in the calendar with any confidence would be the April mixed meeting, the Eclipse and the Tingle Creek – and I bet those are their three biggest crowds.
AP
Id much prefer to see the good race cards being split up across different days. At the moment the majority of racing in the UK through weekdays and Sundays is absolutely awful for a potential new fan.
Using this weekend as an example i do not see any reason why the Kempton decent races could not be run on the Sunday and let Doncaster (as it was) have the spotlight on the Saturday.
If you compete with yourself you will ultimately not maximise the potential and at the moment racing definitely competes with itself – pointlessly.
It’s weird.
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