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The thought of Channel 4 waxing lyrical about Quevega hammering a load of 2nd rate mares at Cheltenham again this season is depressing.
I entirely agree Betfair – go for the Stayers.
As a racecourse newbury is going downhill and the prize money for the long distance hurdle is pathetic so I think the big bucks haydock story is a wheeze to get Newbury to put their hands in their pockets and stump up more money
Don’t agree with Newbury going downhill R&S, but the prize money difference between winning a Handicap (Hennessey) Chase and a Grade 1 Hurdle is too much. Something Paul Nicholls has commented on. Agree with you R&S, it’s a wheeze to get Newbury to stump up more money in future. I’d be surprised if BB doesn’t reappear in Berkshire. In fairness, Newbury probably feel they need to compete for Hennesey runners with the Betfair Chase (which is worth more than the King George)… Where as there’s not much competition at this time of year for the Staying Hurdle.
Value Is EverythingThe inevitable rubbish about you need to be a staying chaser to be a Great – has reared its ugly head again.
Just as the mile and a half c..p hit us on Frankel threads.Stop living in the past lads.
Whether compared to 2 milers (hurdlers or chasers) or staying chasers – The "Great" Big Buck’s is right up with the best.
Value Is EverythingBoth Nichols and Walsh have said BB is the best Nichols has trained. And with a form string that looks like 53/6U3447716/12121371/U1111/1111/1111/11111- I think they are right.
- Total Posts 438
Both Nichols and Walsh have said BB is the best Nichols has trained.
Big Buck’s may well be the best horse Nicholls has trained but that isn’t reflected in the form book. Nothing he has done deserves a rating as high as Kauto Star’s 36 length romp in the 2009 King George or Master Minded’s first Champion Chase win.
That isn’t to say, of course, that he isn’t capable of bettering those gargantuan efforts by his erstwhile stable companions; he simply hasn’t needed to do so as yet.
Nothing he has done deserves a rating as high as Kauto Star’s 36 length romp in the 2009 King George or Master Minded’s first Champion Chase win.
I am not disagreeing with your point completely, but you could have picked some more impressive performances to compare Big Buck’s to.
Kauto Star beat a ragtag bunch of animals in the 2009 King George. There weren’t any true Grade 1 horses in there. Although Madison Du Berlais had beaten Denman and won the Betfair Bowl, he was on a downward spiral. Nacarat didn’t get home in the ground and Barbers Shop never produced a performance worthy of a 160s rating. He also didn’t truly stay three miles.
Meanwhile, Master Minded beat former Champion Chaser Voy Por Ustedes in his Champion Chase. Later veterinary analysis of VPU showed his back problems would have been troubling him even during that race. The outpaced and reluctant Fair Along was a distant third.
Time has shown that neither of those performances were as great as they seemed on visual impression. Kauto Star’s 2009 Gold Cup, Denman’s 2008 Gold Cup or Denman’s second Hennessy would be better comparisons when trying to define modern greatness.
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Kauto Star’s 2009 Gold Cup, Denman’s 2008 Gold Cup or Denman’s second Hennessy would be better comparisons when trying to define modern greatness.
We’ll have to respectfully disagree. I’ve been keeping my own ratings since 1981 and Master Minded’s first Champion Chase (rated through the second, third and fourth) is second only to Carvill’s Hill’s Welsh National romp in my estimation, with Kauto’s 2009 King George fourth (Desert Orchid’s Racing Post Chase comes in third).
Indeed, it looks like a bit of a stalemate. I agree with you about those other two performances you mention though – both top quality weight-carrying efforts.
It does seem like a weakness of ratings analysts in general that they do not retrospectively amend their ratings of races in the light of new information. Nevertheless, since none of the major form agencies do it, you cannot expect independent analysts to be unique.
The inevitable rubbish about you need to be a staying chaser to be a Great – has reared its ugly head again.
Just as the mile and a half c..p hit us on Frankel threads.Stop living in the past lads.
Whether compared to 2 milers (hurdlers or chasers) or staying chasers – The "Great" Big Buck’s is right up with the best.
Give over – are you trying to be trendy? Staying Hurdle races are as prestigous as 2m hurdles or Chases, are they "lad"?
Interesting to read Michael Dickinson’s comments within Cormack’s brilliant update on Ewart’s Tapeta gallop.
He stated that Badsworth Boy was the best that he ever trained.
Now as he was primarily a 2 miler, and not capable of winning a Gold Cup for example, he doesn’t fulfill the criteria that some require re being "versatile" or winning over what they perceive to be the "first division" of championship races.
The same flawed argument that some use to stop Big Bucks being regarded as a true champion therefore must also apply to Badsworth Boy.
Therefore Michael (one of the greatest NH trainers ever) must surely be mistaken. Or is it others that are ?Or maybe you are ignoring the fact that the Staying Hurdle division is traditionally the weakest within National Hunt?
If Big Bucks was skilled / brave enough to jump a fence this debate would not be happening.
Or maybe you are ignoring the fact that the Staying Hurdle division is traditionally the weakest within National Hunt?
If Big Bucks was skilled / brave enough to jump a fence this debate would not be happening.
Using that view then, no great multiple champion hurdler, could be regarded as a true champion either ?
In my view, nonsense.The Champion hurdle is a true championship test, but you would have say is less prestigious that the Gold Cup.
And many would argue that the Champion Chase is also less prestigious than the Gold Cup. However , the fact remains, that although Badsworth Boy never stayed far enough to win the latter, it does not stop Michael Dickinson from rating Badsworth Boy as his best ever.
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