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Coolmore has two big betters in Smith and Tabor yet O’Brien will tell the public that his horse won’t be beaten.They (O’Brien and Murtagh) claimed that Mount Nelson would win the Eclipse that both Duke of Marmalade and Henry and Yeats would win at Ascot and that Henry would win at Goodwood.Don’t mind what they say about the horses just listen to what they say about the races.If they think they are going to win they will say so.And when they do they are seldom wrong.
A fantastic horse who boasts solid form.
Everything went right for Ravens Pass. However, like New Approach, he has been beaten on two consecutive occasions by a better horse.
Jimmy gave the horse every chance to win the race – he simply wasn’t good enough. John Gosden is a shrewd guy. If he knew that RP could upset Henry by racing more prominent then he would have applied those tactics. His horse needs to be held up. If he can’t beat Henry with his preferred tactics, then he never will.
Three-times they’ve met. Three-times the O’Brien horse has won. No hard luck stories, just beaten by a superior animal.
Seems like Aiden is looking at the Breeders’ Cup Classic. Personally, I think The Duke is a better proposition for the race.
As good as Henry is over a mile, I just can’t see him running to that level in a BC Classic. I don’t think the race will suit him.
That’s four runs, four wins, four group ones for Henry. Is there another horse in the country who can match that? I don’t think Aiden has to look far to find the answer!
Dream clash. Henry vs The Duke vs New Approach. We’ll never see it, but we can hope. The Duke for me.
Not sure about the bit about New Approach being beaten by "a better horse". Only beaten a whisker in a truly run race over a distance appearing to be 4f less than his best. Would Henry beat NA over 1m4f?
A better miler, certainly. A better horse, only maybe.
I do not buy into this belief that if Raven’s Pass had been ridden differently or had kicked on earlier that he might just have beaten Henrythenavigator. It wouldn’t have made a blind bit of difference, in my opinion. If anything, it would have simply galvanised Henry and Murtagh into producing more effort, and in all probability the O’Brien colt would have won further than he did.
That’s three times Henrythenavigator has now defeated Raven’s Pass. He should now get to keep him.
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he is a phenomenon on what he has achieved this season so far,no matter what the opposition,it takes very good horse to win 4 group 1 on the trot.
Henrythenavigator keeps beating the same opposition and each time he has done so, the runner up has got closer. In my opinion, he’ll only be a phenomenon if he stays unbeaten this season and claims the scalp of Curlin!
Henry has beaten New Approach on both occasions they’ve met this year.
Would Henry beat New Approach over twelve furlongs? If he stays the distance, then I believe so. John Magnier said that he would have run at Epsom if the ground was in his favour.
The question is ‘Who would win over ten furlongs?’ Again, if HTN is equally as effective over the trip, he’d have far too much speed for NA.
Ravens Pass obviously needs to be held-up. John Gosden was fully aware after the St James’ Palace Stakes that he couldn’t beat Henry for speed. He wouldn’t persist with hold-up tactics if he thought the horse would benefit from being closer to the pace.
Like The Duke, it’s quite sad that HTN isn’t getting the credit he deserves.
A top-class 2YO, he’s matured into a dual Guineas winner, defeating a future Epsom Derby winner in the process. Ravens Pass, talented and consistent at the top level since two, has never beaten HTN on three occasions. Twice Over, conqueror of Ravens Pass in the Craven and third behind the aforementioned duo, has since won the Prix Eugene Adam.
Solid form and it’s scary to think that further improvement could come for a step up in trip.
Bosranic – The same Twice Over who was beaten comfortably by Tartan Bearer in the Dante, who was beaten by New Approach at Epsom. Different distances etc are not an exact science. What you are saying is like saying Maurice Green was a superior athlete to Michael Johnson as he had more speed.
For the record i’m not crabbing Henry who is certainly this years best miler to date.
Ravens Pass obviously needs to be held-up.
Again I ask "based on what evidence?"
From what I recall at the beginning of the season there were doubts over Raven’s Pass getting a mile so understandably they gave him every chance during his first couple of races. Its not what I’d do, I’m more of the opinion that you ride a horse as if it will stay and if it doesn’t you just have to accept that, but I can understand why they rode him the way they did in the Craven in particular.
Now though it seems as though people have just decided the horse has to be held up and as far as I can see its just something inside peoples heads rather than something based on racecourse experience.
Interestingly his best two runs (Ascot and Goodwood) have been in smallish field when he’s been ridden (because of less runners) not so many lengths off the pace.
Why does everyone assume Raven’s Pass HAS TO be held up? Based on what evidence?
Ian I hat to harp on about this but id Ravens made the running or went to thr fromt 3 otr 4 furlongd out in thid class of race he would probably end up out of the first three.
You ask why they don’t try something different? Well it’s down to an accumulated 100 years of experience between jockey, work rider and trainer.
It would be a bad day when the Jockey and work rider don’t know what’s best for the horse..
Ravens greatest weapon, as he proved on several occasions as a two year old, is his burst of finishing speed.
Don’t forget he has ran a real top class miler to a very short margin. I can’t see how or at what time his jockey could have done anything else.
HTN if anything went too soon and a lesser horse would have ben swamped by Raven’s acceleration.
I disagree with Colin’s analysis of Ravens pass saying he would be suited by a stronger pace.
Ravens depends on his finishing speed and as we often see in races, if they go a really strong gallop it is the stayer who comes out on top wheres if there is a slowish pace the speed horses usually come out on top
Bosranic – The same Twice Over who was beaten comfortably by Tartan Bearer in the Dante, who was beaten by New Approach at Epsom. Different distances etc are not an exact science. What you are saying is like saying Maurice Green was a superior athlete to Michael Johnson as he had more speed.
For the record i’m not crabbing Henry who is certainly this years best miler to date.
Not a great example regarding Twice Over’s Dante form, where his blood was found to be wrong.
I wouldn’t say that Henry is a superior horse based on his superior speed. He’s proven he’s a better horse by defeating the Epsom Derby winner twice this term.
It’s obvious that New Approach is more ideally suited by a stiffer test of stamina, but judging by the long term targets of Ballydoyle, it’s quite possible that HTN may prove even better over further, too.
Fist is spot-on. Not only do the connections of Ravens Pass have a vast amount of experience, but the main man, John Gosden, is as shrewd as they come. If he felt the horse would benefit from a change of tactics, then he would have applied them by now.
Yes he’s beaten him twice this season, over NA’s wrong trip, which is the key point.
If Green had beaten Johnson twice over 100m presumably ou’d be saying Green was clearly the better athlete?
Henry has beaten New Approach twice this season, but like has already been said that was over NAs wrong trip. 1m2f on good ground would probably see New Approach at his most rampant, and I would fancy him to thump all opposition on those terms.
Henry has established himself as a superstar miler. To have held off ravens pass twice on Ravens Pass’s ideal conditions proves that more than holding off New Approach over a trip too sharp for him.
Ravens Pass is IMO also an exceptional miler on Gd-Fm and it is only the fact that henry is around that makes it look otherwise. I would imagine that if Ravens Pass stays in training next season he will virtually unstoppable on Gd-Fm.
I think henry is probably AOBs best ever chance in the Breeders Cup Classic. Although many might not agree I would actually like to see Ravens Pass have a crack at the Breeders Cup Classic. IMO it is the way that he is actioned that prevented him from staying 1mile on gd and gd-sft earlier in the season, but on Gd-Fm he hasnt looked tired at the end of his races and on a fast surface I would fancy him to stay at least 9furlongs. With the ground unlikely to come up in his favour again for the rest of the season, if the BC mile is any worse than Gd-Fm Ravens should IMO have a stab at the classic.
DOM couldnt cope with Henry at a mile and I dont think he would cope with NA at 1m4f, but after the way that NA failed (loose term) to handle faster ground in the Irish Guineas if the Irish Champ came up Gd-Fm it would be wide open IMO between those three.
Yes he’s beaten him twice this season, over NA’s wrong trip, which is the key point.
If Green had beaten Johnson twice over 100m presumably ou’d be saying Green was clearly the better athlete?
I’d also fancy HTN to beat New Approach over ten furlongs. Like I said before, I think he’s the better horse and I don’t base that on just speed. I’ve yet to see a chink in his armour.
Comparing two species to prove a theory is slightly illogical, so I wil never compare equine and human athletes.
Bulwark, I don’t think Henry has the profile of a Breeders’ Cup Classic winner. He reminds me a lot of the late George Washington. I can see him travelling well, cruising up to challenge before tiring in the straight. He’s not the most robust horse in the world and the Classic can be a very rough race.
Duke Of Marmalade would be a far better choice for the race, in my opinion. A top class performer over a mile last year, he would have the tactical speed to maintain a position. As demonstrated in the King George, he also stays very well and we know he’s as good as any in Europe over 10F. He’s tough, laid back – the occasion certainly wouldn’t get to him – and he’s shown that he handles any ground thus far. I don’t think the surface will pose a problem.
In Breeders’ Cup races, you need a horse who can hold a position, quicken and stay the distance very well.
Ravens Pass would be a solid candidate for the Mile, but he wouldn’t have the stamina for the classic.
I wrote earlier on this thread:
I have a nagging thought that Johnny Murtagh’s record around Goodwood is not so great. I know he won on Peeping Fawn last year, but who wouldn’t have? Can anyone confirm or quash this suspicion?
Sometimes you just have to laugh at yourself. I reckon Johnny quashed my suspicion all right – times 8!
Another narrow win, another time Ravens Pass gives Henry 1st run. How many more times will Fortune bang his head on that particular brick wall?
Fortune has barely given the horse a good ride all season. Too much to do in France last time, too much to do at Newmarket in the Guineas. I can understand him tracking Henry at Ascot but lessons haven’t been learned today again he tracked Henry. Ok he only just failed to beat Henry but fail again he did. Had he been more prominant and it didn’t suit the horse I think everyone would’ve been forgiving because at least then he would’ve done everything he could to get Henry beaten.
Henry is good but he’s not invincible by any means (despite extremely complimentary quotes from messrs O’Brien and Murtagh). The milers aren’t great this year in my humble opinion.
With all respect Ian you should learn to read a race. Fortune gave the horse a perfect ride and the race was run ro suit Raven’s Pass to a "T" Henry’s would be pacemaker was being scrubbed along causing a slower than expected pace.
Many have doubted Ravens ability to say a mile in a truly run race and is he was to lie handy or try and make the running he would definately not see out the mile.
The best way to ride a doubtful stayer is to hold him up and if it is not a truly run race then it is very much in a suspected non stayers favour.
If ever Ravens was going to beat Henry it was today but he simply isn’t good enough plain and simple.
I think his chance has gone and should they meet again and we get a stronger pace Henry will more than likely finish further ahead of him.
Ravens was my choice to win the guineas. I particulary like the horse but make no mistake Henrythenavigator is a bit on the special side and a superior animal.
I totally disagree this years crop are inferior. I think they are as good as we have seen in some time. HTN has now won 4 group 1 races and you don’t get many of them in a bag of coal.
Where is the doubt about Raven’s Pass’ ability to stay a mile? That was dispelled some time ago surely? Goodwood’s mile isn’t even a stiff mile.
I agree that the race was run to suit Raven’s Pass to a large extent because I personally think (strangely for a horse that is held up) that he is better in a smaller field (possibly because he doesn’t get detatched so far from the pace early on).
However, Raven’s Pass cannot quicken past Henrythenavigator connections surely should’ve known that before the evidence of the Sussex Stakes. I knew it beforehand so did almost everyone else. The only chance Fortune had of winning that race (despite how close he got) was to get first run on Henry and force O’Brien’s horse to try and quicken past him.
Sometimes your only chance is to try something different – to "give it a go", Jimmy Fortune (under instructions or otherwise) didn’t.
I thought I’d return to this thread in light of Raven’s Pass making all at Goodwood this afternoon.
Again I ask the question where did the "Raven’s Pass has to be held up thing come from?
Absolute nonsense and evidence aplenty of non aftertiming if you care to read page three of this topic.
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