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Williescue…you don’t get my angle ?
Kauto Star’s best at Cheltenham was better than Denman’s ??
They met 4 times at Cheltenham and Denman beat him on 3 of those occasions,even after his debilitating heart problems !
What does that tell you ?
Williescue…you don’t get my angle ?
Kauto Star’s best at Cheltenham was better than Denman’s ??
They met 4 times at Cheltenham and Denman beat him on 3 of those occasions,even after his debilitating heart problems !
What does that tell you ?
It doesn’t tell me that Denman was the better horse. It really doesn’t.
Neptune Collonges was improving hand over fist in the 2007/8 season…have a look at his form and he stayed on strongly as Kauto Star had been exhausted trying to keep tabs on Denman which caused him to tire close home,otherwise
he would have finished further in front of Neptune Collonges
,though the grey horse was no slouch himself !
At last, you answer the question AS!
So you admit that Kauto Star was
NOT
"at his
best
" when finishing second to Denman.
Value Is EverythingWilliescue…you don’t get my angle ?
Kauto Star’s best at Cheltenham was better than Denman’s ??
They met 4 times at Cheltenham and Denman beat him on 3 of those occasions,even after his debilitating heart problems !
What does that tell you ?
And if I may use a football analogy: England perform best at Wembley. If they were to beat Holland three times out of four over three seasons at Wembley, would that "prove" that England are better than Holland? Of course not, because Holland’s overall performance which takes into account playing against different opposition at different venues/tournaments is better than England’s.
Kauto Star was french-bred and was equally at home on soft ground as Denman was.
I wish people would stop
clutching at straws
and making excuses for Kauto Star’s defeats by Denman,and not exaggerate in saying that Denman could only beat him over 3m 2f at Cheltenham and nowhere else and over no other distance !
Denman was a front-runner and had Kauto Star beat at every point of the
2008 Gold Cup and if the race was run over 2 miles, and any distance you wish to mention, Denman would have prevailed.
He had enough speed to go close to winning the Sun Alliance Novices hurdle also,and I will even ignore the FACT that Denman still returned to defeat Kauto Star twice more after his debilitating heart problem to stress that he beat him fair and square when both horses were at their best aged 8,and at that stage of their careers
Denman would have beaten Kauto Star anywhere as far as many are concerned,including the 2007 King George IF Denman had run in it
….just watch his imperious performance in the Lexus Chase then for verification…far more impressive than Kauto’s King George win that year.
Talk about "clutching at straws" AS.
In the 07 Lexus Denman beat the 2nd Mossbank (who
never
won a Grade 1) easily by
4
lengths.
Our Vic
beat Mossbank in to 2nd by
5
lengths in the Ryanair. It’s true that Denman beat Mossbank far more easily than Our Vic did, so the former is a better racehorse.
But Kauto Star beat the 2nd Our Vic easily by11
lengths in the 07 King George. It may or may not be done "as easily" as Denman beating Mossbank, but Our Vic (and the King George 3rd Exotic Dancer) were
far better
horses than Mossbank.
Belies logic
to believe Denman would’ve beaten Kauto Star in the 07 King George on the evidence of the Lexus.
Now you think that Denman would’ve beaten Kauto Star (when both at their best) at
any
distance.
Kauto Star: Easy Tingle Creek winner, with
top class form at 2 miles
.
Denman: Beaten for pace in the Sun Alliance Hurdle (2m4f) and came in to his own at3m2f
.
You’re making yourself look a laughing-stock.
I know some people are blinkered when it comes to their favourite horses AS, but you’re running in a blindfold.
Value Is EverythingDenman was not beaten for pace in the Sun Aliance Novices Hurdle as he finished second there,his only ever defeat over hurdles and had the rest of the field well behind!
How many times was Kauto Star beaten in contrast ?
Denman had Kauto Star beaten at ANY distance you care to mention in the 2008 Gold Cup as he just could not get past him at any stage..trying as hard as he did..and that is why Neptune Collonges was able to get closer to him at the end of the race…if Kauto had not tried to take Denman on then he would probably have finished a few lengths in front of Neptune Collonges as opposed to a short head..but no further !
The "laughing stock" is anyone still trying to believe that Kauto Star was better than Denman !
The results between them conclusively PROVE he was not,whilst Denman was UNBEATEN over fences prior to his debilitaing heart problem,whereas Kauto Star had been exposed on far too many occasions,which seem to have been conveniently forgotten about,despite his 16 Grade 1 wins !
Didn’t Silviniaco Conti win nicely on Saturday?
Rob
Certainly did Rob, don’t think you can judge him against Long Run, but The Giant Bolster ran a fair race. Nicholls’ impressive young chaser is on the up, but really hope we can judge him further before March. Nice to see The Giant Bolster bolster the Gold Cup form too. Well, may be not exactly bolster it, but at least it proves last year’s renewal not totally devoid of talent. Do you think Long Run is becoming a bit of a Forpadytheplasterer Rob? May be he’ll find an excuse to lose against any opposition these days. Though the fact they’re yet to go back to the winning King George/Gold Cup formula of wearing ear plugs while racing – suggests connections know he’s not showing the same sparkle at home.
Value Is EverythingDenman definitely would not have beaten Kauto Star at Kempton. As Kauto Star glided home, Sam Thomas with an aching right arm, would have been trying to wrestle Denman off the hurdles course! He didn’t go right-handed at all well.
I just think head-to-head, in the one race where they had no excuses, Denman proved he was better equipped for staying chases on galloping tracks. Before Denman’s heart scare, his weapon was his grinding front-running and slick jumping. Kauto’s best attribute of speed was blunted by Denman and Neptune Collonges forcing a ragged pace. This also provoked several scrappy jumps from Kauto Star, proving his discomfort with the tempo of the race.
Neptune Collonges finished so close because to Kauto Star because the race panned out to suit the little grey. That is not to say that Kauto Star ran below form. He did not have any ‘form’ in a gruelling stamina test like the 2008 Gold Cup before it happened, having never faced such an examination before.
As for the Kauto Star excuses that day:
1. Kauto Star missed 0 days of work and 0 training sessions after being lame after the Ascot Chase. It was a minor scare and not an inconvenience.
2. Clive Smith ventured that Kauto Star hadn’t got over the Ascot Chase when running in the 2008 Gold Cup. Although beating the very classy Monet’s Garden at Ascot was quite a feat, Kauto’s honourable performance at Aintree after his brutal Gold Cup experience showed he could cope relatively well with races in close succession at that age. He was flat at Aintree but ran remarkably well compared to others who attempted the Cheltenham-Aintree double like Imperial Commander and Riverside Theatre.
Kauto Star got outstayed and outjumped by Denman in 2008. Denman at his absolute best was the only horse able to maintain a gallop punishing enough to do that to a peak version of Kauto Star. The Gold Cup is supposedly the Blue Riband event of the whole season, so that is why people use it as a basis for comparing the two horses.
Sure, Kauto Star would have eaten Denman alive in the Tingle Creek, Ascot Chase and King George. Denman savaged Kauto Star at Cheltenham over 3m 2f though. I wonder what would have happened if they met (at their peaks) over three miles at Haydock, Newbury or Leopardstown? We can only run the races in our dreams I suppose!
Though the fact they’re yet to go back to the winning King George/Gold Cup formula of wearing ear plugs while racing – suggests connections know he’s not showing the same sparkle at home.
Good point, GT. Remember the lad from Nicky Henderson’s yard who won on a massive accumulator at the festival last year too? All the acca horses were from Nicky’s yard, but Long Run was not one of the ones in the bet. Surely that suggests the team aren’t too impressed with his work nowadays.
If Kauto Star met Denman over 3m+
and both were at the peak of their powers, i would expect Denman to come out best at Cheltenham and Newbury, Kauto would win anywhere going right handed and would beat Denman on tight left handed tracks.Kauto Star’s illustrious list of achievements certainly make him the most decorated horse in National Hunt history. His longevity and versatility enabled him to achieve this status and he is rightly considered the greatest chaser of his era.
The first and only horse to win the King George on five occasions. The first and only horse to regain the Cheltenham Gold Cup. The first and only horse to win two different Grade One National Hunt races on four occasions.
Contributing to his 16-time Grade One tally were two Tingle Creeks over the minimum distance, where he defeated future Champion Chase hero, Voy Por Ustedes, on the second occasion. That season, he was the considered the best chaser over a spectrum of distances after an unbeaten campaign.
I consider it folly to assume Denman was the superior horse judged on their four encounters over one specific course and distance. Kauto never jumped, nor travelled with any zest during their first epic, yet was still beaten just seven lengths by Denman, who was flawless throughout.
Of course, Kauto smashed Denman the following year after the latter had well documented health issues, but any chance Kauto had the following year soon evaporated after he belted the eighth and later fell. He was never right the following season, which was evident in his laboured King George third and subsequent Punchestown effort.
The rest, as they say, is history. Denman, whose career began in March 2005 and finished after twenty-four starts, was retired. Kauto Star, whose career began in March 2003 (a few weeks short of his ‘third birthday’), won a record-breaking fifth King George on his fortieth visit to the track.
Facts and figures that us that Kauto Star is the best horse of his era, and it is fitting that the main contributing factor to his revered excellence was winning the King George on five occasions.
The King George is the purist race in the National Hunt calender, which rewards class more than any other. It is a race that demands speed, athletiscism and stamina, whilst it’s mid-season position ensures there can be no excuses – vaild or otherwise – citing the ‘end of a long season’. It’s Roll of Hounour is the greatest in the game and for Kauto Star to win it more than any other speaks volumes.
Denman would have found it difficult to even make the frame in a King George judged on his appearance at Punchestown, where he jumped left throughout and never looked happy, much like his Kempton effort behind Madison Du Berlais.
Kauto Star didn’t enjoy Cheltenham, yet still possessed the ability and courage to win two Gold Cups. During his career he displayed limitless attributes and lifted himself from the canvas to regain his crown on more than one occasion.
A true champion who took equine brilliance to a new level.
And, yes, Silviniaco Conti was very impressive.
"Kauto Star didn’t enjoy Cheltenham" IS an under-statement and the Cheltenham Festival is the pinnacle of any NH horses career AND Kauto Star could only win twice from seven Festival appearances !
Contrast that with the greatest ever chaser,Arkle,who won four out of four there,and everyone around at the time knows that would have been seven from seven had his career not been curtailed aged 9,whilst Mill House would have won five times there,had Arkle never existed,and Golden Miller won five times from six Festivals also !
You can talk up Kauto Star’s King George wins as much as you like but he was no more impressive than the likes of Mill House,Mandarin,Captain Christy and Desert Orchid etc had been there before on the occasions they ran in the race,whilst Arkle was conceding 21lbs to his opposition when he came home alone in 1965,and a cracked pedal bone was the only reason he was caught and beaten half a length in his final race in 1966,still conceding 21lbs to the runner-up !!
It seems to be a matter of convenience to state that Denman could not have won going right-handed….we can never know as they never raced each other there,and by the time Denman did run at Punchestown he was a shadow of his former self.
We will just have to agree to disagree, though I am happy that Denman proved the better horse three times out of the four they met as that is ALL we will ever have to go on.
As for Silviniaco Conti….he won well enough but I personally don’t see him winning the Cheltenham Gold Cup.
Arklesupreme you have hijacked yet another thread. Please start a Denman v Kauto thread and stick to it. This thread was about the BETFAIR CHASE 2012. Perhaps my eyes deceived me but neither Denman nor Kauto was entered this year.
Silvinianco Conti ran a good race, I am surprised his form has really turned around this year. Long Run may have peaked at a young age. I think the problem is his jumping has never really improved.
Admiralofthefleet,please do not attempt to victimise me here….I merely responded to elgransenors sweeping statement that "Kauto Star was the best chaser seen in the past 40 years" and it escalated from there !
There is no harm done with healthy discussion about the matter and if you want to create a thread about that…be my guest..though I feel everything has been said about it all now,and we are just entering the world of "tautology".
It seems to be a matter of convenience to state that Denman could not have won going right-handed….we can never know as they never raced each other there,and by the time Denman did run at Punchestown he was a
shadow of his former self
.
Without wishing to annoy AOTF…
AS,
Before Denman’s heart problem he won the Hennessey off a mark of 161. After the heart problem Denman won the Hennessey off a mark of 174 (almost a stone higher) when apparently, according to you a "shadow of his former self
".
If only you knew jow to read form.
Come off it mate. Stop making things up.
Value Is EverythingGingertipster…I suggest you have a good look at both Hennessy Gold Cup races in question !
Denman was far more impressive in 2007 than he was in 2009, and gave Sam Thomas an armchair ride destroying the field from way out,whereas Ruby Walsh had to get serious with him and bustle him up for ages when he won as an inferior horse to the one we had all witnessed before.
Ask his trainer and owners…they will put you right!
He was never the same horse as he had been up to and including the 2008 Gold Cup when UNDEFEATED over fences.
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