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Why should Kauto Star have the edge on class ?
Denman was unbeaten over fences prior to his debiliating heart problems and who’s to say that would not have continued if that misfortune had not happened to him.
In contrast,Kauto Star had already been beaten over fences before their epic first Gold Cup meeting and was beaten several times in his career without any excuses,albeit he was brilliant at Kempton in winning his five King George races.
No-one can be certain he would have beaten Denman anywhere if Denman had not had his problems after his Gold Cup win.
Unfortunately,it is something we can never know….though we do know the results of their four meetings together !
Timeform Chasers And Hurdlers ratings
06/07 Kauto Star 184+, Denman 161p (while a novice and learning)
07/08 Kauto Star 182, Denman 180p (after winning the Gold Cup)
08/09 Kauto Star 184, Denman 171+ (after his heart problem)
09/10 Kauto Star 191, Denman 181 (better rating than before the heart problem)
10/11 Kauto Star 166, Denman 175 (in his 10-11 year old season on the downgrade).
11/12 Kauto Star 179 (as an 11-12 year old), Denman retired.In hindsight, I wonder whether Kauto Star was given too big a Timeform rating for winning the 2009 King George by a "distance". However, it was still probably his best performance, and there are many other performances where the form (one horse compared to the next, compared to the next etc) does add up. It’s far too simplistic to compare the two Nicholls star’s ability on just one run a year at one track, where in no race did both runners show their best. To figure out which horse had the best form abilities must be judged on their best form (put up against any horse at any track).
There is a question whether Kauto Star was better at 3m2f+/Cheltenham than Denman. A hard one to answer. KS only really showed that brilliance once at Cheltenham, winning the 2009 Gold Cup from an admittedly below form Denman. However, the third and fourth Exotic Dancer (beaten a total of 15 1/2 lengths) and Neptune Collonges (beaten 21 1/2) suggest Kauto’s performance an outstanding one. Every other Cheltenham start made by KS can be rated well below what he produced elsewhere (particularly Kempton).
To say Denman would’ve been a better horse without the heart problem is xxxxxxx against the wind. Wishfull Thinking might have been capable of beating the lot of them had he not met with bad breathing problems. But can’t be rated as doing so. It’s just "wishful thinking". Denman even won a Hennessey after that Heart problem and finished 3rd in another, giving masses of weight away to two Gold Cup prospects in Diamond Harry and Burton Port.
Fact is for whatever reason Denman did not improve his form significantly, so can not be rated better than Kauto Star.
He can in my book – apart from the comeback gold cup effort after heart trouble Denman beat him every time. Proof enough for me.
He can in my book – apart from the comeback gold cup effort after heart trouble Denman beat him every time. Proof enough for me.
To think that way PC, you must believe Kauto Star is only a short head and nose (respectively) better than Neptune Collonges and What A Friend. It’s ridiculous.
Kauto star didn’t run to form behind Denman, get over it. Kauto Star was consistent elsewhere, but inconsistent in the spring/at Cheltenham.
Me thinks it’s that old chestnut: Cheltenham is Cheltenham, therefore Cheltenham form must mean everything. Cheltenham, Cheltenham, Cheltenham, Cheltenham…
Denman and Kauto only took each other on at a track that suited Denman and didn’t suit Kauto; over a distance that suited Denman and didn’t suit Kauto.
Kauto’s best form is superior to Denman’s best form.
Value Is EverythingI do not need to get over anything – I don’t really care one way or the other, but I’m certainly entitled to my opinion, which is Denman won 3 out of four. I’ve only got that to go on because Nicholls keep them apart in all races but the Gold Cup.
Criminal really that arguably the most talented Stayer of recent years never got the chance to run in a King George.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion PC, I’d have hoped their opinion is based on more than the two horses meeting over the same course and distance that suited one far more than the other. Where it is patently obvious that in no race did both horses run to form. ie Kauto Star only just beat Neptune Collonges a short head for second in Denman’s Gold Cup. Then Denman below form, on his way back from a heart problem. Then Kauto Star only just beat What A Friend a nose and both he and Denman below form behind Long Run.
If Frankel would’ve run in the Ascot Gold Cup and got beat by Colour Vision 3 years out of 4… Would you think Colour Vision the better horse PC?
Value Is Everythinggingertipster, the Frankel comparison is ridiculous as he never raced further than 10 and a half furlongs…though he would have stayed a mile and a half as far as I am concerned.
The bottom line is if you look at Denman’s steeplechase form prior to his debilitating heart problem he was unbeaten,unlike Kauto Star,and proved superior to Kauto Star in their much eagerly awaited encounter in the 2008 Cheltenham Gold Cup !
He was the better horse when both were at their best.
he never raced further than 10 and a half furlongs…though he would have stayed a mile and a half as far as I am concerned.
Exactly AS. But Frankel very definitely would not have stayed 2m4f. So had he run in the Ascot Gold Cup would not have shown his
best
. Yet you insist on judging Kauto Star at a course and distance that didn’t show him at his
best
.
May be I am just expecting too much from people, where their judgement is far too simplistic. To come to a worthwhile decision an ability to realise where and when horses do and don’t run to form is imperative.
I notice you have not answered this question:
Do you believe Kauto Star at his
best
is
only
a short head
superior
to Neptune Collonges and
just
a nose
superior
to What A Friend and a
wopping
11 lengths
inferior
to Long Run?
If the answer to the question is NO – then you can NOT believe Kauto Star ran to form behind Denman (ie Kauto Star has shown better form in other races). Therefore, any fair minded person can not judge that Denman is the better horse purely on those two races (Kauto Star fell in Imperial Commander’s race).
In my opinion Kauto Star at his best would’ve slaughtered both Neptune Collonges (not just by a short head) and What A Friend (not just by a nose) and beaten Long Run (not lost by 11 lengths).
We’re not judging who is the "best horse at Cheltenham" here, we’re judging which is the
best
racehorse FULL STOP. So
ALL
their races need to be taken in to account. ie Denman’s
best
form should be judged against Kauto Star’s
best
form, wherever, whenever and at whatever trip that
best
form was put up.
Value Is EverythingThe bottom line is if you look at Denman’s steeplechase form prior to his debilitating heart problem he was unbeaten,unlike Kauto Star,and proved superior to Kauto Star in their much eagerly awaited encounter in the 2008 Cheltenham Gold Cup !
He was the better horse when both were at their best.
But Kauto Star wasn’t at his best, was he? In Denman’s Gold Cup Kauto Star only beat Neptune Collonges a short head.
I ask again, is Kauto Star (at his best) only a short head superior to Neptune Collonges?
Or to put it another way Had Kauto Star met Neptune Collonges (and the two run to their
best
form) – would you expect Kauto Star to beat Neptune Collonges by further than a short head?
To say Kauto Star ran to his best in Denman’s Gold Cup is crazy.
Value Is EverythingMay be I am just expecting too much from people, where their judgement is far too simplistic. To come to a worthwhile decision an ability to realise where and when horses do and don’t run to form is imperative.
Or maybe you just over-evaluate things Ginger God and still come to the same conclusion Tom Segal does but in 71/2 hours more time eh?
Maybe we could say that Denman was the better staying chaser, but Kauto Star was by far the better all-rounder?
Would that be a fair compromise?
Maybe we could say that Denman was the better staying chaser, but Kauto Star was by far the better all-rounder?
Would that be a fair compromise?
Here’s more over-evaluation, just for Gord.
Depends what you call a "staying chaser" TYF. Three miles is a staying chase and Kauto Star’s three mile form is in my opinion better than Denman’s 3m2f+ form. Also, in his second Gold Cup Kauto Star produced one piece of form (imo) at least as good as anything Denman did at 3m2f+. Can certainly be said KS wasn’t as consistent at 3m2f+/Cheltenham as Denman. KS’s two Gold Cups were relative tests of speed at the trip (not that strongly run). However, the often suggested "Denman broke Kauto" is imo misguided, as KS was beaten before stamina should’ve become an issue… And it’s proven he’s got more than enough speed to keep up with Denman for at least 3 miles. For whatever reason just didn’t travel that day and didn’t run to form in Denman’s Gold Cup. May be KS is not
usually
as good in the Spring/at Cheltenham, hence the inconsistencey of form there. Often short of his best at Aintree too, so a Spring connection could be significant; though Liverpool could be because of the short time between meetings (not fully recovered). However, it must be said, Kauto had admirable consistencey elsewhere in the Autumn and Winter.
Value Is EverythingI think we also forget that Denman won the 2008 GC on his favoured soft ground and Kauto won the 2009 GC on his favoured good ground – makes a big difference. However, I have no doubt Kauto was the better horse, due to his ability to win anywhere and at different distances.
Kauto Star was french-bred and was equally at home on soft ground as Denman was.
I wish people would stop clutching at straws and making excuses for Kauto Star’s defeats by Denman,and not exaggerate in saying that Denman could only beat him over 3m 2f at Cheltenham and nowhere else and over no other distance !
Denman was a front-runner and had Kauto Star beat at every point of the 2008 Gold Cup and if the race was run over 2 miles, and any distance you wish to mention, Denman would have prevailed.
He had enough speed to go close to winning the Sun Alliance Novices hurdle also,and I will even ignore the FACT that Denman still returned to defeat Kauto Star twice more after his debilitating heart problem to stress that he beat him fair and square when both horses were at their best aged 8,and at that stage of their careers Denman would have beaten Kauto Star anywhere as far as many are concerned,including the 2007 King George IF Denman had run in it….just watch his imperious performance in the Lexus Chase then for verification…far more impressive than Kauto’s King George win that year.
Kauto Star was french-bred and was equally at home on soft ground as Denman was.
I wish people would stop clutching at straws and making excuses for Kauto Star’s defeats by Denman,and not exaggerate in saying that Denman could only beat him over 3m 2f at Cheltenham and nowhere else and over no other distance !
Denman was a front-runner and had Kauto Star beat at every point of the 2008 Gold Cup and if the race was run over 2 miles, and any distance you wish to mention, Denman would have prevailed.
He had enough speed to go close to winning the Sun Alliance Novices hurdle also,and I will even ignore the FACT that Denman still returned to defeat Kauto Star twice more after his debilitating heart problem to stress that he beat him fair and square when both horses were at their best aged 8,and at that stage of their careers Denman would have beaten Kauto Star anywhere as far as many are concerned,including the 2007 King George IF Denman had run in it….just watch his imperious performance in the Lexus Chase then for verification…far more impressive than Kauto’s King George win that year.
Well, I’d say that it was clear that Denman’s best form was on soft ground and Kauto’s on good. Denman "best" GC performance in 2008 was on soft with an ailing Kauto a short head in front of Neptune’s Collonges. Kauto then reverses the form in 2009 by 22 lengths the following year to show his true running – and Denman maintains his 8 length margin over NC.
Not sure Denman would’ve beaten Kauto at Kempton. Not sure Denman actually liked running right handed, unlike Kauto who could run anywhere. Kauto’s best performance at Cheltenham also trumps Denman’s by a mile.
Denman beat Kauto Star 3 times out of 4 at Cheltenham and the 2009 race was a gimmee for Kauto Star as reflected by his odds on starting price, as everyone knew Denman was nowhere near the same horse !
IF he was he would never have started at 7/1 ,or been demolished the way he had been by Madison Du Berlais at Kempton who beat him a lot further than Kauto Star did,whilst Neptune Collonges was injured in the 2009 Gold Cup and didn’t show his true running either.
You cannot compare the form of those 2 Gold Cups…Denman was better when both arrived on the scene in the best of health for the 2008 race and that decided matters once and for all for most,irrespective of what happened afterwards.
Denman beat Kauto Star 3 times out of 4 at Cheltenham and the 2009 race was a gimmee for Kauto Star as reflected by his odds on starting price, as everyone knew Denman was nowhere near the same horse !
IF he was he would never have started at 7/1 ,or been demolished the way he had been by Madison Du Berlais at Kempton who beat him a lot further than Kauto Star did,whilst Neptune Collonges was injured in the 2009 Gold Cup and didn’t show his true running either.
You cannot compare the form of those 2 Gold Cups…Denman was better when both arrived on the scene in the best of health for the 2008 race and that decided matters once and for all for most,irrespective of what happened afterwards.
So you think Kauto was only a short head better than NC? Was this as good Kauto was at Cheltenham?
Neptune Collonges was improving hand over fist in the 2007/8 season…have a look at his form and he stayed on strongly as Kauto Star had been exhausted trying to keep tabs on Denman which caused him to tire close home,otherwise he would have finished further in front of Neptune Collonges,though the grey horse was no slouch himself !
Kauto Star only beat L’Ami by half a length at Newbury,and lost to Our Vic at Aintree,at level weights also,so what does that prove ?
Neptune Collonges was improving hand over fist in the 2007/8 season…have a look at his form and he stayed on strongly as Kauto Star had been exhausted trying to keep tabs on Denman which caused him to tire close home,otherwise he would have finished further in front of Neptune Collonges,though the grey horse was no slouch himself !
Kauto Star only beat L’Ami by half a length at Newbury,and lost to Our Vic at Aintree,at level weights also,so what does that prove ?
Proves that Kauto didn’t really like Aintree, I suppose, and wasn’t in love with Newbury either.
Really don’t get your angle on Kauto, AS. On ratings, he is a superior horse to Denman and his best at Cheltenham is better than Denman’s best. As for Kempton, it wouldn’t even have been a contest had they met.
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