- This topic has 69 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 1 month, 1 week ago by
.
- Posts
I saw a post from ‘Samuel The Cat’ on twitter criticising the media for failing to point out bad rides.
So I thought we’d fill the void.
Go for it.
The problem with threads like this is that you’ll get people talking from their pockets and not from their brains.
I made comment in the Saudi Cup thread that James McDonald’s ride (from the home turn in) got Romantic Warrior beat and I don’t recall much said from the media on it other than what a great race it was to watch (which I do happen to agree that it was).
As I said in that thread media are quick to praise a good/great ride from a jockey (sometimes to absurd lengths) but will seemingly go out of their way to find reasons not to do the same when it’s a bad ride. Would like media to report both either way (i.e. do their job) instead of trying not to ruffle feathers/risk the chance of not getting an interview from the jockey concerned if they do.
Well this is one way of dealing with them! https://www.racingpost.com/news/international/owner-files-lawsuit-against-jockey-claiming-his-inaction-cost-horse-first-place-at-churchill-downs-aYDdg4Z6mggs/
Many might seem to be bad rides, but punters need to take into account the pace in the race and temperament of each horse in the race. Including how each horse likes to race.
Often the reason for TV presenters not commenting on “bad rides” is because they have taken the above into account.
Value Is EverythingI think you are being a bit kind to some of the television presenters, Ginger. They don’t call out poor rides by the top jockeys because they do not want to upset powerful connections and risk becoming persona non grata. Far easier to criticise a 7lb claimer or a foreign jockey instead.
Both George Baker and Martin Dwyer on RTV were very critical about James McDonald’s ride in the Saudi Cup. Fair enough, it was a poor ride. But would either of them have been as vocal if Ryan Moore or William Buick had given one a similar ride? Somehow I doubt it.
Agreed CAS, there are some rides that should be called out by presenters – and aren’t.
What I am saying is imo a lot of the time punters both on here and on other social media often haven’t taken enough account of the pace or expected pace pre-race (how many front runners are in the race etc) and / or the temperaments of all the horses involved in the race.
I remember you yourself criticised Nico’s riding of Hyland in the “Ladbrokes Trophy”.
By saying “I didn’t get involved but if I had backed Hyland I would not be entirely satisfied with De Boinville’s effort. Maybe the horse would not have beaten the winner anyway but he gave it no chance from that far off the pace at Kempton”.This is what I said after the race (have now added a few words in brackets to explain more):
“I do think the criticism of Nico is unfair.
I was expecting to make Hyland a bet. He’d jumped exceptionally well as a novice but had been up there on the pace in 4 of his (only) 5 previous starts over fences… And as I said beforehand, there was absolutely masses of pace in the race. When studying any race I write down how I believe every horse likes to be ridden. Front runner, races prominently, tracks pace, mid-div, held up or dropped out. Including mixtures of eg “FR/RP” or “HU/DO” etc… And only 2 of the 13 runners weren’t described as FR, RP or TP. With 6 of them having “FR” against their name. It stands to reason that 6 horses cannot all make the running. There was imo almost bound to be a rush for the first fence and a strong (or overly strong) pace seemed to me highly likely. In other words those on the front end of that battle would probably be going too fast early on – so were unlikely to stay there. Both the winner and second were behind early. Early leader Beachcomber finished last of only 6 finishers after setting an overly strong pace. The later fractions a lot slower than the early and mid fractions. (Because of that overly strong pace more horses pulled up than finished the race).It is true that Katate Dori made up that ground mid-race to go prominent and kicked plenty soon enough. Does not mean it would’ve been the same had Hyland or another horse done the same. The way the race was run – an overly strong pace on soft ground placing a far greater emphasis on stamina… Suited Katate Dori; who’d won and run well in races over further which were on even softer stamina sapping ground. (ie Winner) had more stayng power than any of his rivals.
Given the way the race was run – Nico played the percentages and held his horse up. Statistically the right thing to do (in a race with an overly strong pace). However, Katate Dori was (A) Well handicapped, (B) From a stable in cracking form, and (C) Had more stamina… And also, anyone backing an (apparent) prominent racer in this field should’ve known that horses ridden differently to what they are used to often don’t show their form. Hyland – the hold up horse – did not jump quite so well as (Hyland the prominent racer) on his previous two. Hyland made up a lot of places in the latter stages, but because others were falling back. NOT because he was given too much to do. He just couldn’t cope with one horse”.
Am not saying you’re a poor judge CAS, just imo wrong on this one occasion where Pace, expected pace and temperament explain a lot about the riding and running of some horses.
Value Is EverythingFair enough, Ginger. I broadly agree with your assessment. I did watch the race again and on reflection it was a demolition job by a well handicapped horse which was given a confident ride.
It doesn’t help that there is a ton of abuse on the social media that goes far beyond the pale. Obviously, it’s not the same as fair critical analysis but nobody wants to be tarred with that brush of ‘giving the abusers more ammo’.
What also needs to be taken into account is that the jockey could simply be riding to instruction and that instruction hasn’t paid off.
Baker and Dwyer would have no knowledge of what the tactics were on Romantic Warrior, maybe Macdonald rode the race perfectly to instruction, maybe this, maybe that, maybe baby.
It is a tricky one and there are going to be clear cut cases of bad/terrible rides but on the whole if you are a pundit whose just watched a race, you’d want to be 95% sure of what you just saw and in this game of many nuances I think it’s fair enough that they would rather not rock the boat.The JP and Skelton handicappers in particular this season seem to have been ridden in a way that would imo not give the horse the best chance of winning those races… But in doing so has kept them well handicapped for the big day.
Trouble is they have probably not been missed by the market.
Value Is Everything“Maybe Macdonald rode the race perfectly to instruction”.
I very much doubt his instructions were “Get a nice position tracking the leaders on the inside, then switch right around the field and race five wide around the home turn and then ask the horse for maximum effort nearly three furlongs from home”.
But the instructions could have been ‘get him clear of any kickback’ and for most of the race he sat behind the front four but had a nice clearing so as not to get any kickback. That clearing closed off so he took a slightly wider route on a track that is pretty friendly in that regard.
Who knows what would have happened if he stayed behind and got covered in dirt, maybe he’d have had traffic problems and then couldn’t reel in Forever Young, maybe he waits, gets a good inside line and wins the race by 2 lengths.
It wasn’t ideal but he had a decision to make and made it swiftly. I don’t think it made a race losing difference but I can’t be sure of that.
It’s not an obvious error like a jockey easing up because they mistook the winning line.Anyway, I just used JM as an example as it was mentioned. If pundits like Baker/Dwyer feel it was a poor ride then fine, it’s not an outrageous opinion, my point was a lot of people would rather not give that sort of opinion on something they’re not almost 100% on.
Could pick out a couple and opinionate on bad rides but we have just seen a genuine mistake from Sean Flanagan on Vanillier so we can add that to the bad ride column.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.