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 :soapbox: Nore I’ll meet you at the famous fried egg stall<br>  come Marchtime<br>  I’ll be wearing a large hat
Ian I don’t think anyone is suggesting that there is now an any price you want for Azerty if they meet again. ÂÂÂ
The fact is that Moscow flyer won. He beat him fair and square. This is the second time he has beaten him. They have met three times. Moscow fell once and the other two times Azerty has been beaten straight up.
What we have now after the race is as far as i can see is a case of  sour grapes  by the Azerty fans  who thought Azerty would win and show himself as the  true Champion chaser. This did not happen.
Through out this thread the Azerty Fans have tried to put forward several reasons why Moscow won…….other than the fact that he is the bets horse.
Apprently Moscow won becasue…….
Sandown apparently doesn’t suit Azerty (on another track he would win)
Ruby walsh is a bad jockey( He should have put Moscow under presure and made him fall)
Its the ratings you see  ( Azerty ran below his best  rating……. because you see if he had ran up to his rating then it would have been he who was the winner and not  Moscow)
The fact is Moscow won….. P nicholls said before the race there would be no excuses. He lost…………NO EXCUSES.
Moscow  was the best hurdler….is the best Chaser and withhout doubt the class act between them.
Deal with it boys.
<br>
(Edited by Nixer at 1:16 pm on Dec. 5, 2004)
Yesterday’s performance was a touch of class. MF is the best two mile chaser in Europe. When you look at the figures for his last 35 races (1118-13121F21-F111F11-1U111U-111U1111), what other horse in training can boast such reliability over five whole seasons against the best that can be thrown at him? 23 wins (26 1-2-3 finishes from 35 attempts) is an enviable record fo any horse. Yesterday, he took azerty to pieces.
Nixer,
If you regard me as a sour graps Azertyuiop fan, you’re wrong. I am a Well Chief fan!
Just because I don’t agree that it is conclusive that Moscow Flyer is the best horse of the two doesn’t mean I have sour grapes.
Firstly, if you think Azertyuiop is at his very best at Sandown I think you are wrong. It’s not as if he can’t run at the place, just that I think he’s better elsewhere.
Secondly, criticising Ruby Walsh is mistaken, I agree. I assume he was riding to his orders. But I think there’s a valid case for leading earlier with him – not to make Moscow Flyer fall, just to utilise Azertyuiop’s ability to travel. Azertyuiop is not that good on the run-in, he doesn’t have the strength of finish that Moscow Flyer has. So I think they would be better off making Moscow Flyer chase them on the run-in rather than the other way around (or rather than getting into a straight battle).
And the ratings, ah the ratings. Moscow Flyer has raced Azertyuiop three times and got a higher rating twice, obviously falling the other time. So you can use that argument if you want. Or you can say that (RPR ratings here) Azertyuiop has twice beaten Moscow Flyer’s highest ever rating.
But both times were in handicaps, in level weights races Moscow Flyer and Azertyuiop have both run to a 176 – making them equal in that respect.
They are not a long way apart and I don’t believe it is certain that Moscow Flyer will beat Azertyuiop in the Champion chase.
Nor do I think it is certain that either of them will beat Well Chief, although that very much depends on how Well Chief runs in between.
Ok. Fair enough Robgom.
Then the point should be that that Moscow flyer is under rated and Azerty is very much over rated. <br>His run in the Vc amounted to nothing more than the fact that he had maintained his previous Arkle form.
His victory in this years Champion shows little as his only in anyway serious contender fell before the race got serious.
The idea that Ruby walsh’s move caused Moscow to fall is in my opinion laughable. As Barry said later Moscow went to Cheltenham a fresh horse. This was the reason he fell and not because of unbearable presure brought about by Ruby making a move forward. (Is the suggestion that no horse has ever made a move to pass moscow in a race before)
Sour grapes is the reaction of the owner who, after he has won an Arkle and a Champion chase for him, decided to publicly questions rubys ride in his after race interview.
<br>
At Cheltenham in March , Azertyuiop was travelling like a dream on the inside and was beginning to quicken through on the rails. Moscow Flyer was far from comfortable ( was not travelling particularly sweetly ) with Azerty’ moving up and fell soon after.
It is not beyond reason to think that the presence of Azertyuiop and the quickening of the pace contributed to Moscow Flyer’s fall. No-one is saying that that theory is definitive , but it is a possible explanation.
And that is the way Azertyuiop should be ridden – forcefully. He has pulled in a number of his races previously and that has to signal the need for a more positive ride. Especially when you’re racing a horse of the quality of Moscow Flyer. The one thing you don’t want to be doing is playing catch up as , no matter how good you are , you won’t catch him. Simple as that.
Now , Ruby had started to make his move before the home turn at Cheltenham and it proved to be the right way to go. So , why didn’t he do the same here ? On that count , the owner of Azerty has a basis for his comments.
Of course , hindsight is a wonderful thing and we can all pick apart races and find every little fault after they have been run. But , from previous runnings of the horse , a forceful ride had to be the call. Now , he could have been riding to orders and if that is the case , maybe the owner needs to direct his feelings towards Paul Nicholls , rather than criticise Ruby ( who is , in my opinion , still the best NH jockey around ).
When we approach any race , we have to look at the package – horse and jockey. The horse won’t do as well as he should , if the man on board isn’t doing him any favours. Whilst Walsh rode a fair race , I don’t think it was particularly brilliant and as much as Moscow Flyer may have been the best horse on the day , Geraghty was in the zone and made the difference in my opinion.
No-one has said that Moscow Flyer isn’t any good , because he is clearly one of the best chasers we have seen for a number of years and he is not losing his touch. However , I still believe Azertyuiop is the better horse and has more to show us. He is only seven years old after all.
That’s just my view – note the presence of the word view. An opinion and the sooner some people realise that , the better. There’s no value coming on here spouting ‘ Flyer is the best , Azerty fans quit it with your sour grapes and deal with it. ‘ If some people choose to think Azertyuiop is actually better , so what ? If they can back up their claims , then let it be. By all means state why you think they’re wrong , but neither side is necessarily correct or incorrect – at this stage.
Of course , this argument could then go on forever , as any victory gained by one horse over the other can prove distinctly conclusive.
Maybe the best horse on the day won , but the best horse didn’t win on the day. I still feel Geragthy was the deciding factor , although as I have said before ( maybe on a different hread ) , Azertyuiop’s jumping wasn’t brilliant over the final two or three flights.
Cheltenham could prove the real clincher either way and I’d hope to see Azertyuiop upsides Moscow Flyer , if not leading Moscow Flyer , at least three from home. I think most could agree that , providing both stand up , this would provide the ‘ ideal ‘ race.
All credit to Moscow Flyer and Barry Geraghty ( and connections of course ) , the race was fantastic to watch , but he won’t be carrying my money at Cheltenham.
Ok LGR …
I’ll hold your hand while i make my point and maybe you won’t feel that i’m stopping you from voicing your view.
Again i can not agrre with your assertion that Azerty was beaten by jockeyship. <br>Your main point seems to be around the idea that if Ruby had somehow applied preasure earlier that moscow would have panicked / fallen or some such.
I can’t see how you can argue that a horse that has won An arkle, A champion Chase… two Tingle Creeks and a Mum Melling along with multiple other races (23 all told) has never been put under pressure. <br>That this is some how a horse that when he is put under presure loses the race. That the reason he fell at chelt was because for the first time in in his racing life a horse/jockey came upsides him.
I’m sorry LGR but i can’t agree that Moscow has only ever won easy races. <br>
(Edited by Nixer at 5:34 pm on Dec. 5, 2004)
I don’t follow jumps racing especially closely at present, but even I got excited about this one.
Out on a Christmas shopping trip (wince) with my girlfriend, we popped into a pub just in time, as it happens :biggrin: , to watch this spectacle. Most of the pub stopped to stare, and by the end I, kinda rooting for Moscow Flyer but wanting a good race as much as anything, was shaking like a leaf.
That really was as good a jump race as I can remember for a long time.
Incidentally, much, much earlier in the thread it was pointed out that Azertyuiop won off a mark of 174. According to my records, Desert Orchid’s win in the Racing Post Chase in 1990 was off 182 and his win at Sandown a year later was off 177: something that those who seem to think that he was popular mostly because he was grey seem to forget.
Can anyone confirm this?
cracking thread
         <br>      moscow flyer            azertyuiop<br>o/r o4    174                   172<br>t/s      152                   161<br>o/r 03    170                   161<br>t/s      162                   150
168 v isio  prior 161    174 v seebald  prior 172
has the handicappers assessment in the hcp’s been wrong,has he  rated azertyuiop higher than he should have??
<br>
(Edited by empty wallet at 6:37 pm on Dec. 5, 2004)
PRU
a quick search of RP website reveals
185 for both
(Edited by empty wallet at 7:01 pm on Dec. 5, 2004)
Are those the Jockey Club marks for both Desert Orchid’s wins that I mentioned?
Are you sure that’s not the rating the Post had him running to?
I transcribed the 1989/90 form to the form book and have 182 as Desert Orchid’s mark for the Racing Post Chase. If he ran off 185 then I’m pretty sure he’d have been rated even higher than 187 by the likes of Timeform: it was an 8-runner race which he won by 8 lengths, 8 lengths and 15 lengths. ÂÂÂ
(Edited by Prufrock at 7:06 pm on Dec. 5, 2004)
As I see it, if Azertyuiop and Moscow Flyer had taken each other on, then there could only have been one result – a win for Well Chief.
Remember what happened in that KG6 Chase when Algan won after Desert Orchid and the others went off in a "speed duel".
And it seemed sensible for Azertyuiop to be settled in behind Moscow Flyer, when the latter is well known to idle in front and lose concentration.
Lastly, I don’t think the relative fitness of the first three is an issue. I’d be pretty content that they were all fully fit. None of their trainers are mugs, and the Tingle Creek is second only to the QM Champion Chase in its importance for the 2 mile chasing brigade.
To get back to the actual race itself, it was a marvellous spectacle, reminding me of some of the Arkle/Mill House races of the 60s, or any number of top hurdle races in the 70s.
Damn right regarding Dessie Prufrock,
I know it’s slightly off topic but his popularity was a combination of extreme braveness (my favourite NH races to this day are his epic battles with Panto Prince, Pegwell Bay & Yahoo), his spectacular jumping and, of course, his colour.
One Man, for example, was a good horse (especially around Kempton) but, IMO, he is a prime example of a horse being favoured down to the fact that it’s a grey.
With Dessie that was most certainly not the case.
Unfortunately he never really handled undulating tracks otherwise he might be setting the standard for Best Mate instead of Arkle.
Lee
I’m surprised nobody has commented on the role of Cenkos in the race. NH is not my speciality but it seemed to me that Geraghty was more than happy to take a tow around from the second Nicholls’ horse and to take it up when that one ran out of steam.
How would the race have unfolded without Cenkos in it? Did the running of Cenkos set the race up for Moscow? Would it have turned into more of a speed test where the younger horses would have had more toe than MF or would Moscow have been able to make all and still found that bit extra?
Should the Harrington team look at purchasing Cenkos to use as a pacemaker for Cheltenham? Should Coolmore watch the re-runs to see how a pacemaker should be used?
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