- This topic has 104 replies, 34 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 7 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Matt Chapman is the most ENTERTAINING TV personality in racing at the minute on any channel. Commentating is a different skillset but I’m sure he’ll be pretty good at it, he’s always been adequate when he’s covered any emergencies.
…AND HOME FOR ALL MONEY!!!
I don’t notice any appreciable depreciation of standards of Iain MacKenzie or Derek Thompson compared to say 10 years ago.
"Appreciable Depreciation"?!!! – Must have been too much vino
Interesting comment from "Akaali" re "big occasion voice", should BBC decide to put Croc out to grass (big if based on past history of keeping their main broadcasters well past their sell-by date), I would say (IMVHO) any one of Hoiles, Johnson & Hunt could fit that bill. It wouldn’t suprise me if John Hunt got switched from Radio to TV should this situation arise (Crusty would love it
!)I’ve not included Simon Holt in the above list on the basis that (unless Channel Four pull the plug) he would have little incentive to switch sides.
quote]
re "big occasion voice", should BBC decide to put Croc out to grass (big if based on past history of keeping their main broadcasters well past their sell-by date), I would say (IMVHO) any one of Hoiles, Johnson & Hunt could fit that bill. It wouldn’t suprise me if John Hunt got switched from Radio to TV should this situation arise (Crusty would love it
!)I think they’d be great too but think of the BBC voices – it seems as if there’s a hereditary aspect to the first choice callers: O’Sullivan-McGrath(he was on the scene with few to choose from)-Bartlett! Their voices all have that certain something which the BBC looks for, or believes fits with the BBC viewers interpretation of what voices in racing should be. Hoiles, Johnston & Hunt don’t automatically sit well with that although, by and large, I agree that their top class. BBC Racing is becoming less important by the year so whilst Bartlett is not the racing enthusiasts commentator, he’s perfect for the barbour/tweed/rosy faced impression of racing that the once a year GN punter associates with racing!! Probably why the racing man’s commmentators like Hoiles steer clear of the BBC. If Richard still posts here, I would love to know if he would accept BBC contract for the National alone or if he is happy to course comment on the big day….
Interesting comment from "Akaali" re "big occasion voice", should BBC decide to put Croc out to grass (big if based on past history of keeping their main broadcasters well past their sell-by date), I would say (IMVHO) any one of Hoiles, Johnson & Hunt could fit that bill. It wouldn’t surprise me if John Hunt got switched from Radio to TV should this situation arise (Crusty would love it
!)
I’m beginning to think it’s quite likely, isn’t it, that Pantsman himself, John Hunt, could easily get the call to make the switch from radio to the telly, couldn’t he?
It would be a nice performance from him, wouldn’t it, for him to get the top BBC television racing job, wouldn’t it? See, he’s even got me doing it now, hasn’t he – slipping in fake, rhetorical questions to try to give the bogus impression of caring intimacy and mateyness?
Getting the TV job and moving from the relative backwater of radio would certainly be better than opening your Christmas stocking to find just “pants and socks”, wouldn’t it?
I can’t believe I settled down on Christmas Eve to watch the video of At The Races from Thursday and, blow me, Pantsman was commentating yet again, this time at Sedgefield. Luckily for him and me, it was a much more pleasant experience this time. Gordon (“thanks, Gordie”) Brown handed over to him so late before every race that there was no time for any banter between Gordie and the humourless Hunty, as Matt Chapman calls him, about “pants and socks” or anything.
Before Paul Ostemeyer complains again
about me mentioning John Hunt, I blame CarryOnKatie for it this time. He inspired me with that cheeky winking smilie. It’s now 2.25am on Christmas Day morning and I have, after all, drunk a nice bottle of red wine. But I have managed to remember that CarryOnKatie is really a man, Sean. Happy Christmas to the real Katie. I have tried out a few smilies of my own by way of tribute to her.
Luckily, Matt Chapman wasn’t there at all on Thursday’s At The Races programme. Sean Boyce and, earlier, Mike Cattermole, just did it straight, thank goodness. Ian Bartlett was commentating on the same programme from Hereford. How anybody can criticise his voice is beyond me.
Chapman certainly divides opinions. David Cormack praises him as the “most ENTERTAINING TV personality in racing at the minute on any channel” (so good, in fact, that he writes ENTERTAINING in capital letters) but other posters on this thread, such as Yeats, put the mute on for Mattie Boy.
He’ll certainly do a good job as a course commentator. As I have said, he is very good at picking up a race commentary if there is a problem or a loss of sound, especially for fuzzy, blurred pictures for foreign races covered by At The Races. Yee-haa, as Phil Walker has said. Mind you, all the racing pictures are blurred on At The Races.
Roll on Jim McGrath at Chepstow for the BBC on Tuesday. We’ll see how he gets on. He seems to divide opinion as well, judging by the range of different comments on this thread. Some people seem to rate him as “nicely clear” and “holding a good possie” but others seem to think he is “further back in the field” as a commentator, if not “out deeper on the track” and “scraping paint over the inside”.
Will he, or won’t he, have his half-moon specs perched on the end of his nose when they show him in the commentary box and, if he does, will he take them off half way through his piece to camera, or not? Will he be standing next to the huge, heavy-duty industrial static-position binoculars he doesn’t seem to use during the race itself (preferring seemingly so obviously to do it all from the TV monitor)?
Will John Hanmer be there in the box with him as his spotter?
Richard Hoiles is due to be the course commentator, according to the allocation list.Crusty Patch:
Having read many many posts by you on the subject of commentators, there does come a point where one has to ask that as you seem to know so much about them (past and present) why not give it a try for yourself?
In my (not so humble) opinion Racetech are impossible to deal with. I am sure others would disagree and by all means say my experience with them clouds my judgement… it does. The Commentator User Group is made up of people who have never called races for a living. They never offer any constructive advice (not that they are really in a position to do so) one is never told what they are looking for beyond the most general terms and they either ignore you or just do not give you an answer when you are looking for feedback. Been there…done that…
I think the best way forward to develop new race calling talent is not to have competitions for the best lady caller or have a User Group decide who is worth a trial or not but to let certain experienced callers take a younger person under their wing and encourage them to practice calls at tracks and then when they feel they are ready, let them call a race or two with the goal of perhaps becoming an apprentice where they can call 1-2 races per day over a year or so when their mentor is on duty. This will give the trainee a lot of experience and a lot of time to learn tricks of the trade out in the field.
But then I would not expect Racetech to even think along those lines…
Craig
Crusty Patch:
The Commentator User Group is made up of people who have never called races for a living.
Craig
The commentator user group is also made up of channel bias people, who clearly cant see who is doing a good job!!
I blame Jim McGrath for commentators these days switching tenses between the present tense and the past tense so often.
In the old days, commentators used the present tense consistently, instead of mixing them, but Jim was the one who brought in the trend for changing "he jumps the last, he’s well clear, he wins it" (present) to ""he jumps the last, he’s well clear, he won it".
They’re all doing it now. Stewart Machin is the worst, followed by next in the field Simon Holt and further back Ian Bartlett and John Hunt. John Hunt was doing it for some of the races at Sedgefield on Thursday.
It’s one of many influences Jim has had for the worse in commentary styles since his arrival, chief among them, as mentioned before, the rule that nobody passes the stands or the winning post any more, they all must "pass the judge" (who, no doubt, is Dave Smith again).Crusty Patch:
The Commentator User Group is made up of people who have never called races for a living. They never offer any constructive advice (not that they are really in a position to do so) one is never told what they are looking for beyond the most general terms and they either ignore you or just do not give you an answer when you are looking for feedback. Been there…done that…
I think the best way forward to develop new race calling talent is not to have competitions for the best lady caller or have a User Group decide who is worth a trial or not but to let certain experienced callers take a younger person under their wing and encourage them to practice calls at tracks and then when they feel they are ready, let them call a race or two with the goal of perhaps becoming an apprentice where they can call 1-2 races per day over a year or so when their mentor is on duty. This will give the trainee a lot of experience and a lot of time to learn tricks of the trade out in the field.Sounds like Craig Braddick has had a bad experience with trying to get on to the commentary rota. Sour grapes for not getting in.
Letting commentators take budding trainees under their wing would make for interesting tuition. Tommo would impress upon them the need for saying: "Herrrre we go for the lucky last". John Hunt would insist on them punctuating three-horse races with long pregnant pauses, an absolute ban on the inclusion of any mentions of jockeys or pieces of form, as well as plenty of matey rhetorical questions.
Malcolm Tomlinson would coach trainees on poor imitation Australian accents and phrases and the need for all jockeys to remain unnamed throughout but to "sit tight". Stewart Machin would ban the use of any jockeys’ first names. Mark Johnson would insist that no commentary be delivered at a speed of less than 90mph throughout, apart from at the end when you would be required to slow to an American…style…slow…staccato…finish.
There would be plenty of room under Mike Vince’s wing but you would get only one or two days work a year …. and only at Ascot when that course specifically requested you (Shergar Cup day availability preferred).Crusty Patch:
I said in my post it was my opinion and clouded by my experiences. Not sour grapes at all. And I am quite happy calling up to 100 days a year here in the USA, when in 2007, it was zero days, thank you very much.
Switching tenses is something the majority of Australian race callers have done for a very long time. When I have asked them the older ones point to John Tapp or Bert Bryant as their influences and the younger ones just do it because that became the accepted style.
While I think most race callers are glad people take interest in their work, you clearly seem to think you know the business better than you actually do.
It is very easy to pick holes in people from behind a computer, it is quite different to be the man in the arena. The commentators of the past who you often point too would be the first to tell you they had strengths and weaknesses, just as todays commentators do. What (most of us) share is the desire to improve our level of race calling. Every race we ask: "How could I have done that better?"
I learned from McGrath, Goode, Gilbert, Penney et al at a young age, often literally alongside them. They had patience (and I am sure I was a major league pain to them) but they took the time to help out someone who was a young teen to get on the road to where now I make a living. Unlike you, I have been there.
And those lessons still resonate today. There comes a point where if you are going to criticize callers to the degree you do, it is not unreasonable to invite you to call a few races so we can learn from your great amassed wisdom of race calling (and callers.) The invite is open…
Craig
Switching tenses is something the majority of Australian race callers have done for a very long time. When I have asked them the older ones point to John Tapp
Simon Holt nearly always mentions John Tapp as one of his main influences when he gives interviews about how he got into racing and the commentators whose styles he admires.
Certainly proves how Jim McGrath’s style and Australian delivery has permeated into those of British commentators.I always look forward to and enjoy the BBC’s Chepstow coverage and it’s great that the meeting was rescued from being axed.
It was a good programme and once again Clare Balding did an excellent job.
I enjoyed Jim McGrath’s commentary on the Welsh National. He didn’t let me down but seemed at times tongue-tied and struggling a bit in earlier races.
It wasn’t just at Kempton that the records were being set. In the second televised race, Jim set a new post-war record for the longest ever padding while struggling to identify one of the runners.
I haven’t heard anything as impressive as this that we heard from him in that race:
… "further back in the field then…at this stage we see…getting over that on the near side…gerr…going up towards the leaders now…as they race up now with just over a circuit there…".
But after all that playing for time, he didn’t eventually actually mention the name of the horse he was trying to identify.
Just for good measure in that race, we were treated to a "He’s home for all money" as the winner bounded clear.
Then, before the Welsh National, we had a mention of "that early possie" in his chat to Mick Fitzgerald before an early outing for "handy possie" just after the race had started.
Interesting to see Rishi Persad competing with Robert Cooper of At The Races for an interview with Jonjo O’Neill. Cooperman had beaten him to Jonjo but good-naturedly backed off when Rishi, who had been doing another interview, breathlessly moved in.
At Kempton on Channel 4 the day before, the shot soon moved off Paul Nicholls as soon as the producer realised that Cornelius Lysaght from the radio had beaten Channel 4 to an interview after Kauto Star’s victory.
The BBC excelled themselves a couple of years ago on this Chepstow day when also showing races from Kempton after Channel 4 pulled out from showing the second day. No Kempton races this time.
Channel 4 won the prize for the unintentionally funniest moment of the TV racing when John McCririck turned to the white-haired joker who had pushed his hat and shouted: "Oh, grow up, you stupid idiot."I noticed one or two letters in the Racing Post today in support of "croc" and the "injustice" done to him, notably from ex colleagues and friends Colin Mackenzie and Robin Gray.
Obviously their opinion must be swayed by their friendship, they can’t have been influenced by the accuracy and quality of his calls these last few years.
Of those on trial the only one who can be considered unlucky imo is Darren Owen, as has been said previously his dalek like voice wasn’t the best for commentating but having heard him earlier in the week he sounded as if he had considerably toned down his voice. He should have no problems if he keeps that up.
I see our best commentator Richard Hoiles failed to notice the 3-15 at Chepstow go off yesterday. Only noticing after the runners were 50 yards after the first. Must have had a dessie moment, albeit he did apoligise. Im sure nothing will be said.
I noticed one or two letters in the Racing Post today in support of "croc" and the "injustice" done to him, notably from ex colleagues and friends Colin Mackenzie and Robin Gray.
Obviously their opinion must be swayed by their friendship, they can’t have been influenced by the accuracy and quality of his calls these last few years.Jim is certainly dividing opinion at the moment.
Robin Gray describes Jim’s work as "exemplary" and adds: "To place him on trial now is an insult both to him and to the racing public."
Gray, of course, has an axe to grind because I think I’m right in saying that, when he left the commentary rota after completing about 40 years of service, it was certainly not by choice and he would have liked to have stayed on.
His apparent bitterness is evident in the line: "It took several years for SIS to deprive racecourses and betting shops of most commentators who had worked for Racecourse Technical Services – now RaceTech."
He adds: "The fact that McGrath and others before him have been presented with a fait accompli without being shown any evidence of criticism of their work indicates the dubious integrity of these reviews."
Could he mean himself, I wonder?
Another letter writer, William Macaulay, describes Jim as being "as good as ever" but he admits: "Jim was practically single-handedly responsible for revolutionising the staid, old-fashioned style of racecourse commentary with a new and exciting vocabulary from Australia via Hong Kong.
"All you need to do is listen today to hear how much influence he has had."
That’s certainly true. Staid and old-fashioned was certainly the hallmark of Robin Gray and I was glad to be "deprived" of him, although I know he has his admirers on this forum. Today’s commentators are nearly all doing impressions of Jim now, to greater or lesser extents, even down to copying his phrases and the irritating changing of present and past tenses.
Colin Mackenzie also makes the point with: "His style is much imitated and great communicators such as Simon Holt and Richard Hoiles owe him a lot."
I sincerely hope Robin Gray doesn’t read the Betfair forum if he is looking for "evidence of criticism" of Jim. There’s plenty of criticism of Jim there. By contrast, there have been quite a lot of positive comments about him and other threatened commentators on this forum.
But, as Paul Ostemeyer has rightly pointed out elsewhere, the Betfair forum’s level of comment on a whole range of subjects is an absolute joke. I had a look last night in the light of Paul’s comment and couldn’t believe what an indisciplined shambles it was.
Not at all user friendly either, unlike here.
The quality and nature of the vast majority of postings by a whole host of respected sages on this forum are positively scholarly by comparison. Even when people here do get tetchy, there isn’t the foul language and inane childishness of the Betfair forum.I see our best commentator Richard Hoiles failed to notice the 3-15 at Chepstow go off yesterday. Only noticing after the runners were 50 yards after the first. Must have had a dessie moment, albeit he did apologise. Im sure nothing will be said.
In the old days, the judge and not the commentator used to announce: "They’re under starter’s orders and they’re off." Now it’s left to the commentator.
I doubt Richard Hoiles felt the need to do a mea culpa on Twitter this time, as he did after his minor Ascot gaffe a while ago.
In days of old, the judge sometimes used to forget to announce to the public that they were off. Once at Market Rasen, it was left to commentator John Penney to say after about a furlong, "They’re running."
Des Scahill seemed to be on good form at Leopardstown today, putting quite a bit of effort into the race I saw and he was being positively animated at the end. Good to hear Richard Pugh at Limerick today. Much easier on the ear.I think you are being a little harsh on the Betfair forum. It is all about instant response which sometimes appeals to me rather more than someone spending half an hour writing a thesis. There also seems to be less contributors trying to somehow prove they are superior to another poster on Betfair. It happens occasionally but not as often as on here. Both forums serve a purpose and should be able to exist without one putting the other down.
I think you are being a little harsh on the Betfair forum. It is all about instant response which sometimes appeals to me rather more than someone spending half an hour writing a thesis. There also seems to be less contributors trying to somehow prove they are superior to another poster on Betfair. It happens occasionally but not as often as on here. Both forums serve a purpose and should be able to exist without one putting the other down.
They’re certainly short and straight to the point on the Betfair forum but, as you say, they both serve a valuable purpose in giving people an instant outlet for their views.
There’s certainly no doubting its popularity, from my very limited recent observations and experience of it.Robin Gray’s dismissal from RTS (and it is hard to think it is nearly twenty years ago) was very upsetting to him.
He was (and remains) very well liked and was blessed with a very good voice for race calling. He could handle small or large fields with ease, set himself high standards and I spent many afternoons in his company. He was also much in demand at top quality tracks.
He was one of the few race callers that did not drop off in quality as they got older (Gilbert and Penney being the only other two that spring to mind) and was certainly a first class caller when he was taken off the list.
Craig
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.