ATR Sectional Times at Lingfield – What's the point?

[Kenh]

don’t suppose it has occurred to some that sectional times could help with integrity issues.

Ken could you put some flesh on this please , it does not make any sense to me

many thanks

Ricky

sorry been away for a few days.

From the BHA consultation paper’

Post Raceday Investigations:Delivered in a more comprehensive, accurate and accountable manner,sectional times can add significant value to the work of the BHA. Previously, the BHA has used sectional timing data (obtained manually) in investigations and,in this context, the data can be a valuable –sometimes compelling –piece of evidence.

Raceday Regulation:
The potential for quick access to accurate and accountable sectional timings could bring significant benefits to Stewarding Panels analysing a race immediately after it is run. This would be of particular use in cross-referencing any instructions jockeys have been given. The potential for plotting
horses’ positions within the context of the race as a whole would also be of significant value to Stewarding
Panels.

Sectional times are used abroad in enquiries. Quite simply if you can accurately gauge how a jockey rode a race it has to be of benefit.

In America many races are now covered by the Trakus system. This not only allows sectional times but can also plot how much ground a horse covered in relation to others.

[ricky lake]

Thanks Ken , duly noted and understood ….now we just need to get ginger to justify his comments and closure is a done deal

appreciate the constructive nature of your argument , I have doubts that the stewards at any of the aw tracks would cross examine trainers for instructions and tally with information gained by sectionals …but still its there to be used ……

cheers

Ricky

imo

[horsesforcourses87]

New to the forum but an enjoyable read to say the least.

I’m in agreement with Ken and Simon here. I don’t pay much attention to the sectional times at the moment with them only been available at Lingfield but i’m sure one day I will if they are available at all courses. It would be interesting to see the extent of the data produced as I’m sure more than just a figure for each section of the race can be produced from the GPS.

I personally enjoy the AW and would say that racing on the AW is more likely to be run at a true pace than on the turf due to the differences in course characteristics on the flat and there is just a greater consistency on the AW for me. There are obviously differences in each of the AW courses but you can find horses returning to the same course within the same week which can’t be said for the flat.

Yes you do get low grade class 7 races (Which I avoid) but you also get group races and class 2/3 handicaps and with the AW championships I would of said that the popularity has increased which will hopefully lead to more trainers keeping horses running throughout the winter.

[Gingertipster]

For the record I firmly believe the AW is mostly bent to the core , I believe what I see , I believe the markets and the money traded..I believe the way the races are run , but mostly

I believe that low level dross class 6 and 7 races cannot be good for the game, as quite simply why race for 1900 or 2000 quid and get a new Hcap mark

, whilst paying fees of 25 grand a year …when its easy to get some of your mates to lay it for 10 grand on your behalf

Losing on low graded races must be very profitable for those concerned , except of course for the poor mugs betting on it
This is my firm opinion , AW is mostly bent , I wont even watch it in future , you Sir can have it ,….but eventually you will see the light
Ginger …..can you please comment on my point or argument , I dont see how I am losing it …
so go on dust yourself off and comment if you can …..
imo

It may surprise you Ricky, but I share your hope, to get rid of Class 7 racing; for exactly the same reasons as your well made arguement. Although I can also see some punters might be better than you or I at second guessing connections intentions. Not saying all Class 7 is bent, it just isn’t worth enough money so therefore encourages skulduggery (imo)…

However, both Ken and Simon’s arguements are about Sectional Times; not how "bent" the game is or could be.

Surely, when/if it is so difficult to profit from these Class 7 races –

anything that comes along to give punters the opportunity of making a profit – can only be applauded?

As Simon says:

So that you could, for instance, figure out after the first 2f of this year’s Winter Derby that the leaders were going too fast and lay one/some of those leaders or back something that was behind. Such as the winner, who was in last place after 300 yards.

When early pace is

overly

strong it is highly unlikely the front runners will be able to show their form. And greatly favours those in behind who are going the optimum pace. So even in races you and I believe are subject to more skulduggery than usual – it gives an advantage to the informed punter. Although as someone who takes particular attention to how a race is likely to be run – I hope it does not end my edge.

It also helps stewards immediately identify those deliberately raced to lose; going off at a suicidally overly strong early pace they have absolutely no hope of maintaining. Increasing the chance of jockeys being found out in turn makes it less likely jockeys will try. Is that not a good thing Ricky?

Simon also says…

Unfortunately, though, with a 10-second delay in transmission, that would leave you with only approximately 90 seconds of the race to go in which to engage brain and execute a bet. Could be tricky.

…But if the punter has already studied the race correctly he/she will already have pinpointed the usual front runners and hold up/dropped out horses, so be ready to lay and/or back.

And as Horsesforcourses rightly says…

Yes you do get low grade class 7 races (Which I avoid) but you also get group races and class 2/3 handicaps

All Weather sectional times can benefit the punter that is not interested in Class 6 and 7 anyway.

So Ricky, as I said earlier, imo you have "lost the arguement" because any skulduggery involved in poorer classes, has next to no affect on whether Sectional Times is a good initiative for punters. Indeed, Sectional Times may even be effective in deterring jockeys from some sorts of skulduggery.

Sorry I’ve been so long responding, other things on my mind last week.

Mark

Value Is Everything

[ricky lake]

Mark , fair enough ……good enough points , long term I guess sectionals will be good for the punter on all tracks

One thing though …I firmly believe the bending of races will continue . if you study the AW (I am totally done with it )…over 50 per cent of the races are run at a crawl , leaving a 1 or 2 furlong dash …punters beware this is all part of the scam

When punters stop betting or reduce their involvement betting wise on AW racing ..then and only then will the BHA be bothered to have a look …until then you are all at one heck of a serious disadvantage

I wont be taking any further interest or making any further comments on it ….you guys are savy enough to know the difference between a true run race and a bent one ,,, , to me its a criminality of racing , heaven help us if we create more fixtures to accommodate more tracks …it will indeed ruin the brand that is British racing

in my opinion

[horsesforcourses87]

Ricky, how are you so sure that these races on the AW are been run at a crawl? My understanding of the AW is that it can be advantageous to be a front runner or prominent such as Southwell due to the extreme levels of kick back.

I can slightly understand where your coming from in terms of having an opinion that the races are bent, unfortunately I laid one of the horses as part of the Barney Curley coup in January before I knew anything about it and in that instance I don’t think it does any good for the integrity of the sport.

As i’ve previously mentioned I am a fan of the AW and I just think if you chose to understand it a little more you could see that it can be profitable in the long run

[Kenh]

For those, like me, who are interested in learning more about sectional times here is a link ti the turf trax website. On this link you can find all the race by race data for sectional times where it is being used. http://www.turftrax.co.uk/tracking-technologies.html

[horsesforcourses87]

Hi Ken,

Have you used the sectional times from the previous meetings at Lingfield to help with the AW championships today.

I’m just having a look through the the 2.55 in which Ertijaal is the 4/5 favourite.
7 of the runners ran in the same race as Ertijaal on the 22nd March at Lingfield.

Looking at the times it took the runners to complete the last 3f of the race:
American Hope: 33.65
Sir Robert Cheval: 33.87
Alutiq: 33.91
Ertijaal: 34.12

I’m sure a point can be made that Ertijaal was drawn the widest that day and expended a lot of energy to take up a front running position and may have a lot more in the tank today. But the other three runners were held up and I suspect there will be 2 or 3 horses in the field that will want to take up a front running position which could cause Ertijaal to expend a similar amount of energy.

What’s your take on the race?

[eddie case]

Absolute garbage from ATR yesterday regards these sectional times where the presenter apparently said how important they are and how you can now play in running.

Should they really be encouraging in running betting from their seriously, corruptly delayed (6 to 10 seconds) pictures?

Could be a good case for Ofcom here.

Does anyone know why they don’t show the sectionals when they show a replay of the race, it would make far more sense than actually showing them in the "live" race.

[robert99]

Absolute garbage from ATR yesterday regards these sectional times where the presenter apparently said how important they are and how you can now play in running.

Should they really be encouraging in running betting from their seriously, corruptly delayed (6 to 10 seconds) pictures?

Could be a good case for Ofcom here.

Does anyone know why they don’t show the sectionals when they show a replay of the race, it would make far more sense than actually showing them in the "live" race.

The race recoding and sectionals data are in two layers. The race time viewer sees the two layers combined as one. The race recordings take the easy way out and just show the one layer – the race itself. Whether it is cost or total ignorance of what the punter requires in recordings – who knows.
They never ask our opinion so just assume we don’t want it and do not invest in the technology required.

[Kenh]

Hi Ken,

Have you used the sectional times from the previous meetings at Lingfield to help with the AW championships today.

I’m just having a look through the the 2.55 in which Ertijaal is the 4/5 favourite.
7 of the runners ran in the same race as Ertijaal on the 22nd March at Lingfield.

Looking at the times it took the runners to complete the last 3f of the race:
American Hope: 33.65
Sir Robert Cheval: 33.87
Alutiq: 33.91
Ertijaal: 34.12

I’m sure a point can be made that Ertijaal was drawn the widest that day and expended a lot of energy to take up a front running position and may have a lot more in the tank today. But the other three runners were held up and I suspect there will be 2 or 3 horses in the field that will want to take up a front running position which could cause Ertijaal to expend a similar amount of energy.

What’s your take on the race?

Unfortunately I was working on Good Friday and had little time to look at the racing either before or on the day. I am by no means that knowledgeable on the subject of either sectional times or the all weather. I am still learning as I go. I just think there is a huge opportunity with so many knocking it. Good to see you taking an interest. Hopefully we can all learn from each other on the subject.

[horsesforcourses87]

Ertijaal did indeed win which could be warranted to an improvement from it’s last run or the fact that it used the energy available more efficiently.

I was very disappointed with the way American Hope was ridden as the horse would appear to run best when held up, and the sectional timing available would support that. Instead the jockey decided to ride prominently and close to the pace, maybe the jockeys should start taking note of sectional timing?

[Kenh]

, maybe the jockeys should start taking note of sectional timing?

Indeed, It could a good benefit to them.

[horsesforcourses87]

Indeed.

I’d be interested to know if jockey’s do in fact use video feedback to assess their previous days racing? It must be difficult with the amount of travelling they do but they are professional athletes.

[Author]

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