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Going into this race 80% of people must have believed like AOB and Murtagh their best chances of success were F&G and RVW. So why would they run the race not to suit them?
They did exactly the right thing and took the best possible prize money home they could have.
No matter how that race had been run Sea the Stars most likely would have won. He was actually running over the top of himslef in the early stages and he looked like a horse who’s cruising speed is a fair bit higher than the speed they were going. Plus the horse gave the same impression he gavein the Guieneas that he was never really flat out.
RVW also looked like he would possibly have been happier with a stronger gallop or at least a more even pace. He got caught a bit flat footed with the sudden injection of pace but once he did get going he was finishing best of all.
Great achievemnt by AOB who played it like he sould have IMO.
Disagree entirely. The race was only run to suit Rip And Winkle and he was flattered to finish so close. In a strongly run race I doubt he would have finished in the four. It is probably not going to happen but I would suggest there is still a large amount of doubt as to whether Sea The Stars would confirm the form with Fame And Glory if they actually ‘raced’ over 1m4f. Nobody knows the limit of Sea The Stars stamina but the intention to drop him back in trip probably gives something of a clue.
The only ‘achievement’ I can think of for O’Brien is managing to say even less in each interview.
Not just the pace of the race but race Fame And Glory more prominantly. Trying to give a start and do a Guineas winner for speed is verging on stupidity.
Ian – they clearly just wanted Rip Van WInkle to win at all costs – they didn’t seem to care about the others.
I think we can over do it a bit lads. Nothing would have beaten Sea The Stars yesterday….in fact AOB was said to be shocked after the race that he didnt win it. No one expected a preformance of such authority as that and Sea The Stars to stay the Trip as well as that.
Remember though this AOB horses can all be very serious Group 1 horses as they are very slow burners. Still though Sea The Stars is in a different league
The implication of some of the comments here is that Coolmore wanted to win the Derby with their Galileo colt (Rip Van Winkle) rather than with their Montjeu one (Fame and Glory). Why? Because Montjeu is already established, but Galileo needs a boost? I am not sure that I buy this theory.
Nick – there are three possibilities a) Coolmore were deliberately trying to play into Rip Van Winkle’s by setting a slow pace b) They didn’t want a slow pace and Colm O’Donoghue ignored orders c) they haven’t got a clue what they are doing when it comes to race tactics.
I’d price it about a)1-8 b)100-1 c)8-1
Team tactics are ok so long as you lose.. But if you win there is uproar!Aidan will be crucifies no matter what the outcome.And that from those who don’t pay him a penny.I would not have his job and neither would any of the people who are so vocal on this site. Not a word about the many many times he gets it right. A young man who has trained Derby and Arc winners and BC winners deserves a little room to work.
I think we can over do it a bit lads. Nothing would have beaten Sea The Stars yesterday….in fact AOB was said to be shocked after the race that he didnt win it. No one expected a preformance of such authority as that and Sea The Stars to stay the Trip as well as that.
Remember though this AOB horses can all be very serious Group 1 horses as they are very slow burners. Still though Sea The Stars is in a different league
I got Sea The Stars running to 121 and RPR have 124. That is hardly rating of an unbeatable horse infact it ranks below the likes of Authorized.
All in all although we have a Guineas / Derby winner the 3yo’s in general don’t look upto much this year (the Guineas looked sub standard as well).
The older horses that stayed in training aren’t great either no Zarkava, no New Approach, no Duke Of Marmalade, no Ravens pass no Henrythenavigator. Conduit and Vision D’Etat and perhaps Tartan Bearer look the best of them.
Its perhaps not a great year in terms of quality and as far as 3yo colts go Sea The Stars might just be best of a pretty moderate bunch.
Nick – there are three possibilities a) Coolmore were deliberately trying to play into Rip Van Winkle’s by setting a slow pace b) They didn’t want a slow pace and Colm O’Donoghue ignored orders c) they haven’t got a clue what they are doing when it comes to race tactics.
I’d price it about a)1-8 b)100-1 c)8-1
It certainly looks that way, tdk. What I don’t get is: why?
No way can i have this is a average bunch…..
I remember Zarkava saying to me that out of last year Derby only 5 horses had gone on to win a race…I think this is a exceptional strong Irish 3yr old Colt Division afterall the first 5 home are all Irish Trained.
From a Irish point of view its a immense year for Colts at 3yr old level….UK dont have anything really other than Meehans who have been a big let down so far.
I fully expect the 3yr old horses to beat there elders….so many unexposed horses…Sea The Stars has only ever 5 runs.
I would be very suprised if Sea The Stars doesnt get a low 130 rating at the end of the year…if he doesnt they need to lose there job
No way can i have this is a average bunch…..
I remember Zarkava saying to me that out of last year Derby only 5 horses had gone on to win a race…I think this is a exceptional strong Irish 3yr old Colt Division afterall the first 5 home are all Irish Trained.
From a Irish point of view its a immense year for Colts at 3yr old level….UK dont have anything really other than Meehans who have been a big let down so far.
I fully expect the 3yr old horses to beat there elders….so many unexposed horses…Sea The Stars has only ever 5 runs.
I would be very suprised if Sea The Stars doesnt get a low 130 rating at the end of the year…if he doesnt they need to lose there job
Ratings suggested that last years two year olds very very average. The best of them somewhere in the region of four or five pounds behind New Approach the previous year and similarly behind Teofilo from the previous year.
It is thereby not going to be a huge surprise if the 3yo’s aren’t great.
The Guineas second couldn’t win the previous years Dewhurst and Rip Van Winkle who finished forth is a hype horse that doesn’t win top races.
Fair do’s Mastercraftsman won the Irish Guineas but it was on unraceable ground.
Had Ravens Pass, Henry, New Approach, Zarkava all remained in training I think the chances are the three year olds over a mile / middle distances would’ve been wiped out in all aged group one contests. They still might who knows?
Most of this years three year olds especially those beaten into places in the Guineas / Derby have the look of group 3 horses about them, its hard to see the likes of Masterofthehorse, Delegator, Gan Amhras, Rip Van Winkle winning all aged group ones. Fame And Glory and Sea The Stars are the only real hopes. Mastercraftsman may struggle on faster ground but in his favourr is the fact that the milers don’t look upto much this year as older horses. Paco Boy was the worlds highest rated horse a month ago but how far was he behind the best milers last year? Goldikova if she returns to her best might have it all her own way this year, unless the French have something else unexposed coming through to challenge.
I’m always struck by the length of time O’Brien takes giving his jockeys their orders. The huddle they all went into out on the track yesterday was comical. How long can it take to say "you set a steady/breakneck pace, you sit second/third/mid-division/out the back, you try and take it up four/three/two out etc."?
Surely for a race of such magnitude, the team talk would have taken place at Ballydoyle?
This is a bit like Sir Alex Ferguson gathering together his United Squad during the Champions League final warm up and giving out the orders…Ronaldo shoot on site, Vidic take out Eto’o…
Team Coolmore have known for weeks they’ll have a load of runners…surely team talk time is not 5 mins before the off time??
Not a phenomenal performance IMO to saddle half the field in the Derby and get 2nd to 5th places inclusive when it appeared beforehand that this was entirely possible on the form,potential and ability of the horses concerned and just as importantly the opposition.Dre I say I remember thinking much the same about the much lauded Dickinson Gold Cup first 5 which from memory was the 1st 5 of a single figure field and actually involved no real upsets in how those horses were entitled to run on what was known about them.
My point is that if the races were ultra competitive 30 horse fields I would have much more admiration for the achievement.
It turned out that all of the O’Brien horses were entitled to run on what they had actually acheived prior to the Derby but I can’t help agreeing that the apparent scattergun approach particularly from Ballydoyle to this and other races doesn’t sit comfortably as a spectacle and the potential for team tactics to creep in is definitely bad news all round i.e running a squad of horses possibly not on their merits to get an opponent beaten, as has been alluded to here.Well i agree to disagree…..I just have to say one more thing that 2yr olds had no racing last year in Ireland due to the Ground.
RVW=3 Runs
STS= 3 Runs
Gan Amhras=3 Runs
Arazan=3 Runs
Rayeni=2 Runs
FameandGlory=2 Runs
Master=4/5 Runs
BBI=3runs
Freemantle=3 RunsFor me there it the proof that you cant have Top Class 2yr old rating if they dont run…you cant expect them to get Ratings of previous years as they havent raced and the breed has moved on. Its no Suprise that other than Danehill Dancer most of the other Montjeu/Galileo Progeny have been such slow burners. And then the ground was just horrific in Ireland last year…
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Team tactics are ok so long as you lose.. But if you win there is uproar!Aidan will be crucifies no matter what the outcome.And that from those who don’t pay him a penny.I would not have his job and neither would any of the people who are so vocal on this site. Not a word about the many many times he gets it right. A young man who has trained Derby and Arc winners and BC winners deserves a little room to work.
Ffs Andyod, how much is he paying you? Not only did he screw up, he did it royally.
When his horses run on their merits and win, he might just be a good trainer; when he trrys to orchestrate the very best races in the calendar, he is no more than the shyster his paymasters want him to be.There seems to be nothing overlooked by A.P.O’Brien in his quest for winners.
All the O’Brien horses in the Derby arrived into the parade ring late for which he was fined.
Then we have a member of his staff down at the starting gate on the phone to O’Brien. Whats that all about?
Compare all these what seems to me as ‘spoiling’ tactics with the demeanour displayed by John Oxx.
Whilst O’Brien was talking away on the phone to his man at the start John Oxx knew once his horse had arrived on time into the parade ring and he had done all he could and would probably gone through every scenario of what may occur in the race it was all down to his horse and jockey. It was then all down to the horse and jockey on the day.
None of O ‘Briens runners has had problems entering the stalls before so why was the need for an assistant at the start he was powerless to do anything anyway!
Was it to tell the jockeys to waste time at the start after some of the horses had started to enter as I cannot think of any other reason.
It was as if they were going to pull any out at the last minute.
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