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I don’t know what the answer is but I’m afraid the combination of a small field ,a lack of diversity in the breeding of the runners and most of all the scattergun tactics of Aidan O’Brien have left me feeling notably unexcited about the Derby.
Something needs to be done because the race looking like it is a penalty kick for the Coolmore breeding operation in their quest for yet another successor to Galileo is bad for the sport.
Nothing personal against Coolmore or O’Brien but when assessing their success rates in classics and big races nobody seems to take account of the fact that the greats of the past did not run legions of horses in races in order to increase the likelihood of them winning them.
I accept that it would not be their intention but I find their dominance unsporting and too commercial and less and less interesting as a result.
Also,I know its probably down to health and safety but the Epsom Derby with less than 20 runners just doesn’t seem right……..I’d make it 25 to put the race back on the map and give people something to get stuck into.
No wonder the race seems to pass by these days with barely a flicker of wider recognition.
I’m afraid I agree and I don’t know what the answer is either. Hoping we’re not going to see any “team tactics” though. At least the best horse should be allowed to win – even if it is boring
I dare say that I will have a bet on the day but I agree entirely it is not the race it used to be.
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains
I've walked and I crawled on six crooked highwaysI think there’s been something of a genetic hegemony in the Derby for a very long time. Since Santa Clause in 1964, there hasn’t been a single winner with a Goldophin Arabian ‘tail-male line’ and only two (Blakeney 1969, Dr Devious 1992) from the Byerley Turk line. The remainder are Darley Arabians and with the exceptions of Charlottown, Morston, Empery, Teenoso and Shaamit, all other winners trace their stallion lines back to Phalaris. Even when considering owners, the bulk of winners have come from a relatively small crop of interests made distinct only by trainers and silks. The only unique characterisation of Coolmore is a consolidation of resources and a very rare long term confidence in a trainer. Perhaps there may have been a dilution in this hegemony had Dubai Millennium produced multiple crops. Indeed, we’re probably also seeing the consequences of Darley’s protectionist strategy several horse generations ago. In any case, Coolmore hold the cards for the time being at least.
To give credit to Coolmore, their success is the result of decades of meticulous effort from nomination to conception to rearing to training and to the racecourse, rinse and repeat. All of which is far more laudable than buying every single horse that wins a point to point and flogging it once any limitations are exposed which is far more damaging to the “middling” operations.
Majority of good horses are in a very small number of yards which is in itself bad for the future of horse racing… Even more so when one particular operation dominates middle distances. Each year you’ve only got to look at the percentage of runners trained by O’Brien in the original entries of the Derrinstown Derby Trial – to realise Coolmore have a massive number of potentially top class middle-distance racehorses… And therefore will win a massive number of the best races.
However, if one trainer is to have a lot of the top three year olds: Every one of Saturday’s runners would be good enough to run if trained by someone else. Therefore it is surely good they all take each other on when trained by the same trainer? If they didn’t it would really be an uncompetitive, substandard race. As it is, the winner of the Derby is as good as previous generations, it’s just they’re usually trained and owned by the same connections.
British and Irish racing has no divine right to have the very best horse racing and Galileo/Coolmore have at least kept us at the top. So it’s not all bad news
Thankfully (if that’s the right word), Galileo hasn’t got many years left in the breeding shed and his best son Frankel is not a Coolmore stallion, neither is Dubawi, Shamardal, Dark Angel, Sea The Stars. Although Australia and Camelot have made good starts, at this stage neither seems likely to dominate in the same way as Galileo and Sadlers Wells before him. Coolmore may not have such a monopoly for much longer.
Value Is EverythingCoolmore has had spells of poor runs but have guys who know the breeding industry inside out. I’d recommend an hour long documentary on Dr Vincent O’Brien which is on new tube which showed a fairly young John magnier listening to Dr O’Brien and learning about breeding. Yes they have been fortunate to have had saddlers wells and Galileo but a lot of thought went into it.
Godolphins boycott of coolmore stock looks pretty silly now and has left coolmore in a hugely advantageous position. They also now own American pharoah and justify plus Camelot through montjeu will produce many middle distance champions.
You can never tell how the future of breeding may pan out but we went into this season where it looked like that ballydoyle would struggle but it’s not turned out that way.
I’ve always thought if Aiden O’Brien had less to train he would probably produce even better results. I thought coolmore would have sent more horses to David Watchman considering he showed he was a very good trainer.
More worrying for the sport is that is becoming like the premier League in football where the top six dwarf the rest of the league. It would be great if a small owner won big ones but it’s looking less and less likely. I’ve a feeling it’ll turn out to be a very high class derby. It needs another breathtaking winner to get its lustre back. Maybe the wonderfully named sir dragonet is that horse. Looks a gorgeous horse but not as stunning looking as his dad.The Earl Of Halifax, Sir Michael Sobell, the Aga Khan, Eric Moller, Lord Howard de Walden – some of the silks I saw carried to victory in The Derby in my youth. The game was more colourful, then. Coolmore are a skilful operation, they seem to ensure any colt with half a chance of being a Derby colt is with them. They all run on their merits as the victory of Wings Of Eagles attests, but it is kinda….boring. Hands up who hopes Telecaster breaks their apparent stranglehold on the race?
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"I must admit that I’m not a huge fan of the AoB/Coolmore dominance but you have to say that race was anything but boring. A great advert for the sport.
I think the result pretty much says it all. Six of the first eight home. So a justification of the multiple entries.
And what an exciting race it was too!! A great spectacle even though I backed the second!!
I’m far from certain that the Derby result did anything other than further illustrate the problem.
It is far from healthy for the sport that O’Brien has had 7 Derby winners from 80 runners in the last 18 years and comparisons with the achievements of trainers of the past always fail to mention the discrepancy in the sheer number of runners that O’Brien has.
To the casual observer 1 trainer having more than 50% of the runners in 1 race will look very odd and unsporting and to those that follow the sport the so called greatest flat race of the season is losing its significance,character and meaning and is in danger of turning into a complete guessing game where even the trainer of the winner doesn’t seem to know what his best chance is so he runs as many horses as possible to guarantee success.Not healthy.
To the casual observer 1 trainer having more than 50% of the runners in 1 race will look very odd and unsporting and to those that follow the sport the so called greatest flat race of the season is losing its significance,character and meaning and is in danger of turning into a complete guessing game where even the trainer of the winner doesn’t seem to know what his best chance is so he runs as many horses as possible to guarantee success.Not healthy.
How should the trainer know who is best of his runners?
Do you think he races all of them at home over an exact replica of Epsom, on exactly the same ground?Did Sir Henry know Commander In Chief was a better racehorse than odds-on Tenby? No.
Shame Vincent O’Brien didn’t enhance the 1982 Derby by running Assert against Golden Fleece. Wouldn’t that have been a sight well worth going to see?
Shame Vincent O’Brien didn’t enhance the 1983 Derby by running Caerleon (won the French Derby instead) who turned out to be a better middle-distance rachorse than 1983 Epsom also-rans Lomond and Salmon Leap.
Shame Vincent O’Brien didn’t enhance the 1984 Derby by running Sadlers Wells (second in the French Derby instead) against El Gran Senor. Sadlers Wells would probably have beaten Secreto.
Dick Hern’s had two runners in 1979 with Milford the shortest priced of the two, who travelled better than Troy for a long way.
Dick Hern ran three in 1988, Unfuwain, Minster Son and Charmer. Just like AOB’s first three in the betting in 2019, they all started shorter than 12/1. Had Dick Hern had a fourth horse good enough to run am sure he would’ve.Don’t forget: Had pacemakers been an integral part of racing then – as they are today – all the above trainers would probably have had one or two more runners in each race.
Yes, it would be nice if the best horses were spread around a bit more. But the quality of the race is still there/enhanced because AOB runs so many of his best horses in the race.
Would you really have liked to massively downgrade the race by seeing third and fourth strings (winner) Anthony Van Dyck and Japan (close third) skip the race?
Would you have liked Madhmoon to have won the Derby, beating (without O’Briens other runners) the odds-on Sir Dragonet a head, with 6 1/4 lengths back to the worst 3rd placed horse in 50+ years – Humanitarian… in not a 13 runner but a very poor quality 7 horse Derby field?It’s not a “complete guessing game“! All a punter needs to do is study form and work out the best value bet/s. It really is that simple.
Value Is EverythingGinge- everyone is entitled to their opinion but that post is total nonsense.
There’s a huge difference between running two horses in a race- a strong fancy and an improver- and just running as many as you can.
There’s also a huge difference between running as many as one can and running those with realistic chances. If O’Brien wanted to do the former then he could very easily split the race into two divisions. There was no Coolmore horse on Saturday that wouldn’t have been entitled a run under another trainer and there were plenty who stayed at home that other trainers would have given a place chance.
Gladiateur: “Ginge- everyone is entitled to their opinion but that post is total nonsense.
There’s a huge difference between running two horses in a race- a strong fancy and an improver- and just running as many as you can”.
Bachelors Hall: “There’s also a huge difference between running as many as one can and running those with realistic chances. There was no Coolmore horse on Saturday that wouldn’t have been entitled a run under another trainer and there were plenty who stayed at home that other trainers would have given a place chance”.
Exactly, BH.
Gladiateur, if my post was “total nonsense“; what Aidan O’Brien runner did not deserve to take its chance in the Derby if trained by any other trainer?Sir Dragonet, who won the Chester Vase impressively?
Broome, who won the Derrinstown and Ballysax (latter impressively)?
Anthony Van Dyck, who won the Lingfield Derby Trial impressively?
Japan, the ante-post favourite throughout the winter and expected to come on a lot for reappearance – and did?
Circus Maximus, in different ownership. Does the Niarchos family not deserve a runner after winning a respected Derby trial – Dee Stakes – by 1 1/4 lengths?
Norway, who was beaten 8 lengths by Sir Dragonet; but had won the listed Zetland Stakes last year – a two year old race of 1m2f!!! Expected to come on for that reappearance / expected faster pace / more prominent tactics (ie fitness and a greater test of stamina)… AND a brother to previous Derby winner Ruler Of The World… Judging from Timeform ratings did come on from Chester. At this time of his career would certainly not have been suited by the 1m2f French Derby. So what should he have done? Stayed in his box? Besides, Coolmore wanted to ensure a fast pace and he was part of the pace making duo.
Even Sovereign had got within 3 lengths of the Derby second favourite on his most recent start. Brother to two winners at 1m3.5f+. By Galileo and out of a dam related to the great filly Ballanchine. ie Sovereign had been beaten just 3 lengths by Broome and that had come at 1m2f!!! And breeding strongly suggests should be capable of better form at 1m4f+. So had he been trained by any other trainer would be worthy of a Derby start… So why not when trained by Aidan? And I say again, Coolmore wanted to ensure a fast pace and he was part of the pace making duo. When you and I were lads, Gladiateur; pace making was not used as often as it is now. Had they been then Sir Henry, Hern and Vincent O’Brien may well have all run more horses in the Derby than they did.
So please tell us which of Aidan’s horses would not have deserved to run had they not been trained and/or owned by Ballydoyle, Gladiateur?
No trainer has ever dominated the year’s Derby trials like Aidan has this year. Might be better if more of the best horses were trained in other yards, but they weren’t. IF the best horses are trained in one yard then it is surely good they all turn up in the Derby?
Value Is EverythingWhile it does make it slightly trickier to bet in- we would be moaning if say, AOB didn’t run some of his horses in the Derby, and split them up wouldn’t we? See Cracksman + Enable moan last year.
The rest need to up their game, it’s very difficult mind you with Coolmore having Galileo.
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Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!The reason it’s ballydoyle who are in such a strong position is firstly due to them having a strategy long term and then implementing it. They used war front to match up the Galileo staying fillies and having seen that works red Galileo to speedier mares and the latest success is avdyck.
A lot of the other breeders don’t seem to have a strategy and godolphin has so many well bred horses running on the all weather. Their refusal to buy coolmore stock has hurt them so much and will do for years to come. It could have been worse as Frankel only didn’t end up at ballydoyle due to gentleman’s agreement between coolmore and khalad abdulla. As Aiden has said many times the Galileo’s are battlers and stand up to a lot of racing whereas very few from other breeding operations do. I’m sure that Australia and Camelot will provide derby winners in the years to come.
I think we should just all enjoy the derby irrelevant of who bred or owns the horse.
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