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That’s funny about the Telegraph. Certain sections of society imagine that the Royals are of far more interest than is actually the case these days!
Some sensible posts here. Agree 100% about the breeding comments and I think training methods ought to be examined too. Worth noting that there were also 2 fatalities in a hurdle race at Newcastle yesterday. Not sure there is anything more Aintree can do regarding the course but I was somewhat surprised that Noble Yeats wasn’t taken to the much-promoted cooling area straight after the race. He looked very hot and tired.
Eclair Surf and Discorama both died it now transpires.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"The firmer the surface the more likely you’ll get injuries and death. Simple as that. Good going is a harder surface to run on and to fall on than Good-Soft or Soft.
Also when the official going is described as softer than it actually is you may get connections unknowingly running their horses on ground that may injure / kill… I’d like to see official going descriptions taken out of Clerks hands… And for handicappers such a massive potential pay day may be thought of as a risk worth taking anyway.
Yesterday the official going was “good-soft” and yet by Racing Post Standard times the Grand national was 0.94 seconds fast. That time is impossible to do on genuine good-soft. Previous day’s Topham over the National fences also a GOOD ground time. When it comes to safety, for some horses (eg those who’ve had leg trouble in the past or have an exaggerated rounded pounding soft ground action) there is a big difference between those two surfaces.
Value Is EverythingTonge, did Just Paddy’s Band die at Newcastle? I thought he must have when I saw it – truly horrible. So I’ve been trying to find out but there’s nothing on Memorials and the RP haven’t mentioned him at all.
Excellent posts throughout, but still saddened by the loss of two equine athletes and the fact that it prevented me from properly celebrating a 50/1 winner.
Everyone is saddened by it, Ruby. But racing needs to defend the National against the inevitable controversy. If it is not prepared to do that then maybe the race is not worth the bother anymore.
The race has been changed beyond all recognition with the fences being made easier and the race distance being reduced. There has been talk here of reducing the number of runners.
Where does this end? We have to accept the fact there is an element of danger and risk. No amount of changes is ever going to eliminate it completely.
“The Grand National used to be a 4m4f Chase mainly won by 3m Park course chasers, 2m4f chaser Gay Trip even won it one year.
Why?
After a bit of jockeying for position going to the first, they hunted round the first circuit.
You got the odd tearaway like Crisp, but they were the exception, not the rule.
But now it’s an end-to-end gallop both circuits, shorter race but ultimately a greater test of stamina.
And nothing below OR140 ever gets into the race any more.
We now have a 4m2f race run at breakneck speed over quasi brush hurdles with spruce laid on top of them that no one respects.
All of these things bring their own new hazards”.—————————
Where do I start?
No “2 1/2 miler” has ever won the Grand National. Gay Trip may have been running over 2 1/2, but stayed much further on the day. Many 2 1/2 milers who’ve raced over further than 2 1/2 before the National – and been proven not to stay – have tried since Gay Trip and all failed abysmally.
Out and out stayers – like you get winning the Welsh Grand National – don’t win the Grand National unless on very soft or heavy (like Little Polvier or Earth Summit). Even before the latest changes in Ballabrig’s year the time per furlong at Aintree was often faster than at Chepstow. As has always been the case, the best types to look for in a normal year’s National are those effective or would be effective at 3m2f that are likely to stay a bit further.
How can you criticise the race for easier fences causing them to run faster and therefore jump faster… And yet criticise watering, lamenting we don’t get Grand Nationals like Mr Frisk under very fast conditions? ie Without watering they’d go even faster over those obstacles.
Safety of fences is certainly a balance, but they had to do something to the cores in order to make them a lot softer if horses make a bad mistake. Yes, it makes them go a little faster – which isn’t good for safety – but overall there have been fewer deaths since alterations. Surface they fall on is now possibly the main danger. Good-soft or Soft means less danger.
Reducing the distance was I believe more about moving the start further away from the raucous crowd and shorter distance to the first fence. Presumably less time to reach full speed.
Value Is EverythingBoth Celtic Dancer and Just Paddy’s Band (now confirmed) died in the same hurdle race at Newcastle yesterday. Just as entitled to respect as the Aintree horses and just as sad and upsetting.
True, and only one race all day, this time at Newcastle, on this wonderfully-safe watered “Good” ground within ten seconds of the standard.
And yet the usual suspects incessantly insist it’s safer without a shred of statistical evidence to back it up.
Meanwhile, the breed just gets more fragile, generation on generation.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Quote – “Not sure this result is going to be good for the Grand National as a whole. No problem with 7 year olds, but a novice winning the Grand National.
May get far more inexperienced chasers in future and many will not jump as well as the winner today.”Don’t see that as a problem or worry at all with the fences being so soft. I’ve heard more than one “expert” in the last few days describe the National fences as glorified hurdles and there were only 3 fallers in yesterdays race.
Admittedly there were plenty of unseats in the race but that can’t because the fences are too stiff can it?
Moderate jumpers like Pineau De Re and Auroras Encore have succeeded since the fences were changed.
Instead of the easy fix ones they have now they should have had the Mildmay course type fences with plenty of spruce on top.
Maybe the fast times Gingertipster refers to and the number of horses not finishing the race is due to them going too fast because the fences are too soft rather than the fences being too stiff and/or the going too fast.Surprised there’s a debate about this in truth.
For as long as I can remember horses have died on the racetrack, and despite modification to some arena’s and obstacles.It goes with the territory every time an animal such as a horse with those relatively slim long legs is going full out in a race is asking for trouble. Even a bit of uneven ground can make them ‘go wrong’.
If owners run horses and say all I hope is they come back safe then don’t run them at all! Why are you here?
You can make all the changes you like, choose what ground you like horses will continue to die on the racetrack full stop.
Don’t get me wrong it leaves a sour taste after a race if you have picked the winner or not and a horse has died during the spectacle of a race.
But why do people continue to purchase horses, train horses, race horses. It’s the love of ‘the game’, but with that game there is risk, it goes with the territory. They are naive if they don’t understand the risk.
I’m not a heartless B! I left a betting shop during the afternoon a number of years ago with tears in my eyes seeing One Man die at this meeting. Didn’t have any money on the horse but perhaps because it was a grey, I don’t know.
Again despite a number of very knowledgeable people on here, really surprised there’s even a thread.
You all know the risk even after modification, going, etc. It’s part of a full on sport where the participants are on the edge of a precipice each time they ‘perform’ for us.
Yes, Ginger, the ground was undoubtedly Good yesterday. Perhaps Mike or any other time experts could confirm?
Sorry to disagree GSP, but I’m not surprised there’s a thread at all. It’s a hugely difficult subject, and one I freely admit to struggling with, even though I believe racing is ethically defensible as I’ve stated.
Threads like this pop up on here now and again, and to be honest I think that’s a good thing. We are asking a lot of the equine participants in our sport, and should be constantly evaluating if what we ask of them is fair and what can be improved.
And I certainly wouldn’t accuse you of being heartless based on what you’ve said. You’ve stated your very clearly reasoned views and stand by them. I respect that.
0.94 seconds faster then standard is just under 0.03 seconds fast per furlong and for a race of that quality indicates Good ground.
There is nothing wrong with Good ground – the clue is in the name: Good.
Good ground is, err, Good, it’s a Good thing.
Or is Soft, or at least Good to Soft, the new Good?
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"“Moderate jumpers like Pineau De Re and Auroras Encore have succeeded”
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Aurora’s Encore was not a poor jumper in my book Yeats, if he was I would not have backed him.
As far as I remember he made one fairly bad jump and one minor error. There’s been many going back as far as the seventies before any changes who’ve made one bad mistake and recovered to win. Other than that. AE made ground at many of the fences over most of his rivals – which is what should be needed in a Grand National winner.Value Is EverythingGood discussion!
I don’t think there’s much argument that the breed is weaker than it was. The old ‘Tim Forster type’ seems to be few and far between. Speed, speed and more speed seem to be all breeders want. When a horse such as Crystal Ocean is marketed as a NH sire, you know there’s a problem. Horses/sires like Kapgarde/Nickname are that rarity; successful NH sires who raced over jumps….
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