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I found this thread today after searching about account closures as I’ve had about half a dozen closed or completely restricted recently. Ironically, the most recent was Coral who didn’t even have the decency to email me – I just logged in to find my maximum bet was zero. Had to call customer service, was told I was restricted but that traders reviewed accounts regularly. When I asked how often they review accounts the customer service person disappeared for 15 minutes then came back to tell me they’d decided they didn’t want to tell me.
I won a few thousand at Coral. Have had accounts closed after winning much less and some were losing accounts (though obviously they spotted that the horses I backed tended to drop in price). Not a single arbitrage bet by the way.
I guess from my perspective my annoyance is at the sham of the whole process: the pretence the bookmakers keep up in their marketing with the implication that you can win. If they were honest they’d have to admit they’re only interested in taking bets from losers. Or perhaps state on their website that they’ll let you win up to a certain amount maximum.
When I first started betting I believed the myth that bookies tried to make a profit by adjusting their odds and it was a kind of honourable adversarial relationship with punters that played out by the bookies trying to get the odds right and the punters trying to beat them. How foolish I was. much easier just to shut down good punters and only keep doing business with losers.
From the picture you paint of yourself Nause (apart from the multiple accounts!) you do sound like a stand-up punter and I wouldn’t restrict you myself with that profile, nor would any of the people who trained me. I have suffered myself in a similar way – in fact recently baffled to lose my bet365 despite always playing with a straight bat, only ever betting from home and generally betting win-only.
I wonder if a few decent accounts are ‘caught in the crossfire’ due to the beat SP%. There are a lot of shameless arbers out there who don’t even look at the form book and just pick off anything that dips under on Betfair. I wonder if systems automation or poor training of account marking teams at major bookmakers often leads to confusion between genuinely shrewd straight punters and arb robots because of the beat %. Odds compilers don’t do account marking, we’ve got far too much other stuff to look at. If you’ve got people without such a great understanding of racing looking at accounts out of context, that does seem likely to cause bad decisions.
For example, I could look at anyone who backed Stradivarius in the morning yesterday and know the SP was beaten because Big Orange was extremely weak before the off (BSP 3.00 when we were top price Evs in the grids!) and everything else tightened up. I’d know that those early Stradivarius bets were totally straight – it was a good quality race, no price concerns etc. In contrast, I wonder if some intern sitting in a hut in Gibraltar with no understanding of the context would look at that price taken v SP and hoist the red flag.
It’s not my area and maybe I’m doing those teams a disservice but it does seem like a legitimate cause for concern and might explain some of the baffling account closures we all hear about. I am a stand up punter. I’ve had accounts with bet365 and others for many years. I’m sure they use me as Coral used to on a Sat morning, even if they have not got my real name…. To me, they (bet365) are the best around right now. Coral, PaddyPower, laterally William Hills. You’ve all gone the same way. What’s funny, is if I want to go load £5-£50k on Coral casino… You’ll let me play in an instant. Why is that? If it’s all straight and legit, and I have just as much chance of winning as I do at the horses? Why will your firm let me play £50k if I want on a computerised game, but will not take a £25 bet from me on a horse. It answers itself Lostsoldier3 so you don’t need to mate.
Thing is, most people are clueless to it all, they just love a bet. It maybe good business for you lot… But for people like me, it forms a real hatred of what you do LostSoldier3.
I’m sorry I called you scum, you yourself are not scum at all. But, when I hear you trying to justify it all, by calling punters the sort of conmen which your industry in fact are at the very forefront of, it makes me angry enough to sign in and post.
Interesting point but at the end of the day Bookmaking is a business, which is accountable to shareholders and so on. Why should they support financially someone they have never met, which is essentially what they are doing if they are allowing long term successful punters to bet with impunity?
I understand what I am saying goes against the essence of gambling, but it’s a cold hard world out there friend. If you are a long term winner, why not find your way around their rules by employing people to put bets on for you, or just betting yourself down a betting shop, for example. It doesn’t all have to be in your name online, does it?
You could always use my accounts I’ve built up plenty of goodwill over the years
But I do win and I normally always beat SP… Why have literally countless Corals accounts been restricted then? Please tell me I’m all ears.
I think you’ll find you answered your own question in your first sentence.
There’s an awful lot wrong with the way punters are treated by many bookmakers, but I have no problem with any company shutting down a customer who regularly takes money from them. I’d do the same in that position, as would Nausered and anyone else who wanted to remain in business.
Steeplechasing… The whole point of a wager, is one side offering odds, and the other side, if liking those odds… Taking them for a matched bet of an agreed sum. Information is golden for both sides… Well the sides got so far distorted with the advent of the internet… It’s akin to legal theft for them.
Computerisation has allowed the bookmakers to see anyone who might be any sort of danger to them, even very slight… And remove them. So they only play with people who lose… Nice gig if you can get it. If you think this is sporting, in the spirit of what a bet constitutes between two parties… Then I’m honestly shocked. They should have their licences removed. I run a business in manufacturing, and then sell the product to the public myself, I don’t get to say to the people who don’t spend much on our website… Go away I don’t like you… I only like people who spend a fortune… I would be shut down pretty quick or lose all of my customers. It’s exactly the same thing in reverse.
I think you are missing the point here, conveniently. People who don’t spend much on your website aren’t costing you money. Someone who takes money off a bookmaker, clearly is.
I don’t really understand how you can’t see the obvious. Why should a bookmaker support your lifestyle? You have failed to put forward an argument as to why they should do so, and by doing so possibly putting their business into peril. Steeplechasing has nailed it. Anyone in the same position as they are, would do exactly the same, whether they admit it or not.
Limited to £1 E/W with BFSB as of today. FFS
Bookmakers have no interest in people who might make money out of them. They make enough off the rest and their Fobt’s to concentrate all their efforts on them.
Bookmakers, bad for punters and bad for racing.
Are you prepared to post a full bet history from that account, botchy?
No idea how i would do that with BFSB LS, if you mean post every bet made on that account then no, it would take too much time.
Are you prepared to post a full bet history from that account, botchy?
Had a quick look now.
Going back 3 months on SB, which seems to be as far as i can go back
£950 ish placed
£650 ish returnedDid recieve a message ” Having reviewed your account, we are notifying you that your account will not be eligible for Betfair Sportsbook promotions, including Best Odds Guaranteed, in future.
We can assure you that this decision has only be taken after careful consideration and that it does not affect your ability to play on the Betfair Exchange and Betfair Gaming channels.”
Same sort of thing happened with Skybet after Cheltenham and then it just died altogether where i was being offered .13 E/W max.
With opportunities for making money as a punter seemingly far fewer than they used to be (whatever the reasons for that may be) then why aren’t the successful poachers turning gamekeeper instead? If you can beat the bookie, then surely you can beat the punter.
I am quite sure it’s a bloody hard industry to get started in but many people are of the opinion that betting firms are pretty much all the same with a different name above the door and clearly there is a market for a fearless firm who will lay anything to anybody so why doesn’t somebody try it?
That’s a genuine question, not trying to be facetious or anything. Just seems to be something that doesn’t get brought up much.
All I’m saying is that out of context people can’t really judge how you’ve been treated by an account closure. With the SkyBet one, if you had a good Festival with pure straight form picks, then of course, it’s absolutely absurd for your account to be closed. Instead, if your week’s punting was made up of a slew of each-way plays in the Champion Chase and Arkle plus a bit of promo abuse then perhaps one could sympathise with SkyBet, no?
As a few others have said, profit and loss figures aren’t really relevant. How are you behaving on your account? Are you shooting angles or are you winning from straight bets? If the latter, I feel for you – it’s really not cricket for any firm to restrict or close than kind of customer. If the former, really what did you expect?
‘Customer profiling’ isn’t really something I do day-to-day but I know I’d be laughed out of the building if I suggested closing someone using the bald reasoning “well, they’re winning!”.
I wonder if the current climate of promo madness is actually hurting the customer-bookmaker relationship. I remember Triptych saying she had lost a few accounts during the Cheltenham Festival, which seemed ridiculous to me at the time. Triptych is a great judge but more importantly, from her posts on here at least, a straight punter – undoubtedly shrewd but just backing the horses she fancies. We’re seeing ‘bread wars’ style mania in the industry at the moment. Every big firm offers BOG (if not BOG+), odds boosts, extra place concessions, winning distance bonuses, bet & get offers and even more during Cheltenham and Royal Ascot. You’d be daft not to play the offers when they’re available. Of course, these promos are easily abused by MoneySavingExpert wallahs versus the exchanges. Perhaps honest customers are being labelled as MSE bargain bin divers just because they play all of the offers? But then there’s the obvious paradox – why have the offers if you’re just going to can everyone who takes advantage of them?
One thing I noticed is that the bonuses are really to get you hooked, so doubt they would ban people unless they were a consistent long term winner or an obvious arber. If they did ban someone for having a good run at the start they would likely hit them, as it could just be a lucky run and they’d clean the client out in the long term.
to give an example I tried to open up an account once using money from a paysafe voucher, it wasn’t with the intention of just claiming the bonus but as it was there anyway I thought I might as well try and claim the bonus
anyway I was told that the bonus could only be claimed if you registered a card- that’s what they want- a situation where you can just deposit money very easily and lose thousands without even thinking about it. If you try and deposit money by slower methods, they’re not interested in attracting that sort of punter, the bonus is to lure in the fish who all the bookies are fighting over, the sort of drunk essex jack the lad who has a reasonable job and doesn’t mind losing 3k over the course of a weekend betting on all sort of sports.
And people don’t believe me when I say that internet gambling is incredibly dangerous.
Interesting thread and particularly for me as I am not betting at the moment due to a number of factors.
I haven’t had a bet now since July, my friends who know my history and continue to discuss sports betting with me, simply don’t believe me but it is true and the timeline of events was illuminating for me.Firstly in late July, the Monday after the King George, I got restricted on two cycling bets. Cycling is my best sport financially and when I tried to have a £5 bet on a 50/1 shot I was restricted to £0.08. I had been restricted on cycling before but not to this extent…the nature of cycling is that I normally have 2 or 3 long shot bets in a field of 150 to 200 riders but you obviously have to wait a while between wins, I was in profit on cycling and football but behind on racing for the last two years. Anyway, I immediately switched to my William Hill account and my £10 win bet request there was restricted to £0.28
This was really frustrating and I gave up at that point on that race.
I have never been restricted on regular racing though my ante post bets (good record over the years)are often referred to a trader and I have only been restricted twice on ante post, though I have had BOG removed by 3 sportsbooks.
Anyway back to July…Goodwood was coming up and its my worst course in the country for results, when it started to rain I actually did what I threaten ever year (but never do) and didn’t bet at Goodwood.
Later that week whilst reading a forum (probably this one) I saw that old article on bookmaker spy software (msnare), I had checked this about two years ago and found the software on my laptop and removed it.
I had another look on my machine and sure enough msnare was sitting there again. I was a bit pissed now re restrictions and software and had no problem going a couple of weeks without a bet.I then went on holiday for a week (Scottish islands so no wifi anyway) and came back the Sunday before York expecting I would bet on the Knavesmire, as unlike Goodwood, I do well there. But a strange thing had happened…I am generally a punter who likes to spend time on form, video or even time analysis and usually spend a couple of hours a day doing this. During my hiatus, whilst I had kept up on racing news, I had stopped this and was surprised to find I was more relaxed and de-stressed by not having this commitment.
York came and went and again I was surprised how straightforward it was to stay away from betting on racing & football (Cycling season winding down anyway), I now feel like I have literally 2 hours extra everyday to spend in my life and I am surprisingly putting that to good use with my family and friends.
Its October now and I am still not missing betting which is a bit staggering in itself and I do realise I might feel differently some time soon. In 30 years of punting I have stopped a handful of times but before always to clear my head after a bad run and during these breaks I was aware I was making an effort to refrain.
Maybe because I stopped this time not because I was losing but for other reasons I don’t currently feel the need to restart and I have continued to read articles, forums on football, racing, cycling as those sports are of great interest to me outside of betting.I am due to go to Cheltenham for the Open meeting in November (a wonderful, annual social event with friends I don’t see otherwise in the year) and I do intend to have a bet on the tote or with trackside bookies when attending.
No current plans to bet again online though which as I say does surprise me.Interesting thread and particularly for me as I am not betting at the moment due to a number of factors.
I haven’t had a bet now since July, my friends who know my history and continue to discuss sports betting with me, simply don’t believe me but it is true and the timeline of events was illuminating for me.Firstly in late July, the Monday after the King George, I got restricted on two cycling bets. Cycling is my best sport financially and when I tried to have a £5 bet on a 50/1 shot I was restricted to £0.08. I had been restricted on cycling before but not to this extent…the nature of cycling is that I normally have 2 or 3 long shot bets in a field of 150 to 200 riders but you obviously have to wait a while between wins, I was in profit on cycling and football but behind on racing for the last two years. Anyway, I immediately switched to my William Hill account and my £10 win bet request there was restricted to £0.28
This was really frustrating and I gave up at that point on that race.
I have never been restricted on regular racing though my ante post bets (good record over the years)are often referred to a trader and I have only been restricted twice on ante post, though I have had BOG removed by 3 sportsbooks.
Anyway back to July…Goodwood was coming up and its my worst course in the country for results, when it started to rain I actually did what I threaten ever year (but never do) and didn’t bet at Goodwood.
Later that week whilst reading a forum (probably this one) I saw that old article on bookmaker spy software (msnare), I had checked this about two years ago and found the software on my laptop and removed it.
I had another look on my machine and sure enough msnare was sitting there again. I was a bit pissed now re restrictions and software and had no problem going a couple of weeks without a bet.I then went on holiday for a week (Scottish islands so no wifi anyway) and came back the Sunday before York expecting I would bet on the Knavesmire, as unlike Goodwood, I do well there. But a strange thing had happened…I am generally a punter who likes to spend time on form, video or even time analysis and usually spend a couple of hours a day doing this. During my hiatus, whilst I had kept up on racing news, I had stopped this and was surprised to find I was more relaxed and de-stressed by not having this commitment.
York came and went and again I was surprised how straightforward it was to stay away from betting on racing & football (Cycling season winding down anyway), I now feel like I have literally 2 hours extra everyday to spend in my life and I am surprisingly putting that to good use with my family and friends.
Its October now and I am still not missing betting which is a bit staggering in itself and I do realise I might feel differently some time soon. In 30 years of punting I have stopped a handful of times but before always to clear my head after a bad run and during these breaks I was aware I was making an effort to refrain.
Maybe because I stopped this time not because I was losing but for other reasons I don’t currently feel the need to restart and I have continued to read articles, forums on football, racing, cycling as those sports are of great interest to me outside of betting.I am due to go to Cheltenham for the Open meeting in November (a wonderful, annual social event with friends I don’t see otherwise in the year) and I do intend to have a bet on the tote or with trackside bookies when attending.
No current plans to bet again online though which as I say does surprise me.Good for you. Although the only upshot of this seems to be that one of the few people who were winning online has now been discouraged from doing so.
I can accept any business not wanting someone as a customer, it is up to them.
However i find it sick frankly, that they dont close your account fully. But no, they still send you ” 5 free spins ” on the Roulette or let you bet unrestricted on virtual fruit machines don’t they. Very Sly indeed !
Good for you. Although the only upshot of this seems to be that one of the few people who were winning online has now been discouraged from doing so.
I have pretty much been a consistent loser on racing for about 4 years now, I was a winner on ante post in the first 10-12 years of this century but that door has been well and truly bolted by layers for a number of years.
Some points have been made above, possibly by those in the industry, that Bookmakers are entitled to cease business with those that are consistently unprofitable for them.
Maybe that has some merit, I am not clear it logically does but that’s another matter, in my own experience I am being closed down and restricted in my enjoyment and in my potential returns only in small specific areas where I show I know the market better than the current traders the layers employ.
Where I am profitable for bookmakers I am welcome.I any case what I am finding is that my appetite to discuss and learn about sports I previously bet on has not diminished. Despite what some say, to date, it doesn’t matter more when there is money on it.
Very interesting RR. I wonder how many like you have decided the same. Bookies will gradually get wise to the faults in algorithms (although the time they took before reacting to the FOBT onslaught does not bode well for any amendments to the current system of targeting innocent punters).
The trouble with algorithms is that by their very nature those who pay to have them written and deployed do not understand them. They are doing damage in other areas too, in some cases with a much more severe fallout. I heard a campaigner on the radio recently trying to get corporations and governments to wake up to the dangers of algos (the campaigner was an IT specialist and former author of algos).
The example she gave was the prison system in America where, as forms are being filled after a crime and you answer a question the ‘wrong’ way – “are you from a one-parent family?” “Did your father ever spend time in prison?” The subsequent profile when given to the courts can, courtesy of the algos, be used to double (or worse) your prison sentence.
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