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I mentioned him after the race
One thing I would like to know is was there a big gamble on the horse? I never paid much attention to the betting other than watching the first 3.
Equi backed him at 33/1 a while back but when did he get into single figures?
Sea The Stars an impressive winner. He’s very classy, makes it look very easy without being flashy and nice to see the 2yo form being upheld. The real deal at a mile but I wont’ be piling in over longer distances. A big overreaction in the Derby market, I don’t think he’ll stay, not sure if he’ll like the downhill finish either, he really seemed to relish the hill yesterday.
Delegator confirmed he’s a serious horse. I thought Spencer panicked and went for him a furlong too early. He put lengths between himself and the other horses when Spencer pushed go but couldnt sustain it for more than a furlong and basically ran out of steam in the final furlong and was picked off. He’ll be a difficult horse to win with in good company over a mile. Spencer is not riding with confidence at the moment.
Gan Amhras ran a typical Derby horse race, I”d say Bolger will be delighted with that, he’s really tough and deserves a shortish quote for Epsom.
Mastercraftsman was disappointing. He was just a length behind at the bushes yet finished beaten 4 lengths. He didnt show the acceleration to quicken at the business end , he didn’t stay either. Might not be as good as the hype and one to take on at short prices especially on quicker ground.
Cant make my mind up about about Rip Van Winkle. He looked to be staying on without really closing on the leaders and the Damsire keeps shouting sprinter at me. Will need to look at him a few more times.
Evasive ran a decent race, he’s clearly trained on. Was legless in the final furlong and given they only went a steady pace 7 furlongs would be the logical next step you’d think.
The rest ran like the non stayers they are but will be competitive again once dropped in trip.
Mastercraftsman was disappointing. He was just a length behind at the bushes yet finished beaten 4 lengths. He didnt show the acceleration to quicken at the business end , he didn’t stay either. Might not be as good as the hype and one to take on at short prices especially on quicker ground.
Have a look at the race again, he did not handle the dip. Great big striding horse, I mentioned it on Talking Horses that the dip might find him out and he did.
Don’t know how you can say he didn’t, stayed on strongly to the line and will be a big player in the Irish Guineas.
Now that the dust has settled, and i have watched the re-run several times
i have to congratulate Equitrack, for actually putting his money where his mouth is at 33/1 and for actually putting up a thread supporting just that!
Andyod was also a strong supporter and deserves credit, and Imperial did actually mention the horse! The race itself will show that several are Group 1 performers from a 1m 11/2m! Sea the stars,looked and travelled beautifully and stayed on well, Delegator may have won had he come through horses instead of running down the outside! Gan Amrhas looked
like a horse running for the Derby! Rip van winkle again ran like he should have finished closer and Mastercraftsman couldn"t quicken like Rip Van
but stayed on very strongly! If Mastercraftsman doesn"t win a Group 1 this
year Equi, you can have my crown, until then its staying on my head!
I would like to think the race itself will prove to be a strong pointer for future winners and thanks for supporting this thread with over 14000 views
and over 400 posts! I am pleased we have had an ANTE-POST Winner!
even if it was Equitrack!!!!!!!!Did Delegator just not quite get home? Ever so slightly? Very good run all the same, but maybe will be stronger still over a slightly easier mile. Would really have to worry about style of running in the sussex though
It looked to me as though Delegator will prove best over a flatter, round mile. With there being every chance that the others members of the first 4 yesterday
could
all run in the Derby, unless something very classy emerges in Ireland/France I think Delegator will take all the beating in the St James’ Palace.
Hard to tell where Ballydoyle will go with their two.But certainly Bolger will go for the Derby. But he has a couple in the yard getting ready for the Irish and French Guineas. I would like to believe that there are more good milers in Ireland awaiting their chance.Oxx has a couple and do does O’Brien to add to Bolgers milers.The round mile wont scare off those.
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Did Delegator just not quite get home? Ever so slightly? Very good run all the same, but maybe will be stronger still over a slightly easier mile. Would really have to worry about style of running in the sussex though
It looked to me as though Delegator will prove best over a flatter, round mile. With there being every chance that the others members of the first 4 yesterday
could
all run in the Derby, unless something very classy emerges in Ireland/France I think Delegator will take all the beating in the St James’ Palace.
He gives me that impression as well. He would be better suited tucked in and help him relax more too conserve energy. He looked to run just a bit too free at Newmarket for my liking.
Did Delegator just not quite get home? Ever so slightly? Very good run all the same, but maybe will be stronger still over a slightly easier mile. Would really have to worry about style of running in the sussex though
It looked to me as though Delegator will prove best over a flatter, round mile. With there being every chance that the others members of the first 4 yesterday
could
all run in the Derby, unless something very classy emerges in Ireland/France I think Delegator will take all the beating in the St James’ Palace.
He gives me that impression as well. He would be better suited tucked in and help him relax more too conserve energy. He looked to run just a bit too free at Newmarket for my liking.
IMO it was the fast surface that cost him a victory yesterday not the track, which he clearly seems to like. I think on a fast surface there could always be the risk of one just moving that bit better in the last furlong with him. IMO Naaqoos lengthens very well on a faster surface and for the St James palace he’d probably be the one I’d side with. Delegator (after yesterdays performance) will most likely be odds for the St James Palace on if STS doesnt show up at ascot, and IMO he isnt at his peak on a fast surface (even Meehan stated that in the run up to yesterday), so if there is any sort of opposition likely to handle said surface I’d be keen to take him on with them.
Evasive could also be a good one for the St James Palace as his imperfect preparation for yesterdays race had been no secret, and ascot isnt usually quite as testing a race as newmarket. Its that burst of speed though with delegator though. Thats what his strong point is IMO and that could be nice to have around ascot. However I am still 100% sure that he will improve on good ground because of how he’s actioned and he could be a great one for the sussex stakes if it came up that way.
IMO it was the fast surface that cost him a victory yesterday not the track, which he clearly seems to like
Im not sure he does and has performed well despite the track. Except for thr Dewhurst of course…when the track was given as a reason for the relatively ordinary run. I always think Newmarket certainly suits those that can hit the front and stay there a little further out (agree with Carv though about JS) as we saw today
But you can sense when a horse is fidning it all a bit too firm (again RV today) and agree that that was a factor
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I would certainly not go as far as saying the ground cost him the race. See the Stars was without a shadow of a doubt the better horse and had it been good or good to soft would most likely have won even easier.
I don’t agree with the papers/website and all this talk about a spellbinding triumph etc and believe a lot better is to come but it certainly won’t involve Delegator IMO.
He had the advantage of a run don’t forget, he had every chance and STS just ran away from him.
I doubt if we will here much more of Delegator among the top 3 year olds this season.
I would certainly not go as far as saying the ground cost him the race. See the Stars was without a shadow of a doubt the better horse and had it been good or good to soft would most likely have won even easier.
I don’t agree with the papers/website and all this talk about a spellbinding triumph etc and believe a lot better is to come but it certainly won’t involve Delegator IMO.
He had the advantage of a run don’t forget, he had every chance and STS just ran away from him.
I doubt if we will here much more of Delegator among the top 3 year olds this season.
I would never say that the ground cost any horse any race, the best horse on the conditions wins no matter what. What I would say however is that I would expect Delegator to reverse form at 1 mile if the two met again on good ground.
Delegator was able to show a better change of gear than Sea The Stars yesterday, to get from further back than STS to further ahead than STS in quite a samll space of time, which marks him out as a decent horse.
However it was once the two were out in front that the difference in their actions changed that. STS looks a bigger horse than Delegator anyway, but he lengthens better, Delegator couldnt hold his burst of speed indefinitely from that far back, but because of how he moves on that surface is why STS was able to peg him back.
Hosrse that lengthen well are able to project themselves along better on a faster surface, but arent as effective on good or worse (unless they can adapt their actionaccordingly). Ravens Pass in last years Craven was a horse who lengthened, coming up against Twice Over a horse who dug into the ground more than him, and that proved to be what won it on the day. Many got into thinking that RP didnt stay that day but that wasnt the case, RP also ran poorly in the guineas on good ground.
After watching the Craven it became clear to me that Delegator didnt appear perfectly at home on gd-fm, and so I said prior to yesterdays race that although I thought he would put in a good run he wasnt on his ideal conditions and 3-1 wasnt a great price on him.
On good ground one thing is certain, Sea The Stars wont be able to lengthen as easily as he did yesterday and Delegator wont be one bit inconvenienced by it, and if both are in the same form as yesterday Delegator would more than likely come out on top.
Another horse IMO who lengthens over the ground well is Naaqoos,and another who didnt lengthen well yesterday was Mastercraftsman.
IMO it is very naive to say that any better to come wont involve delegator, as he is clearly a decent animal, and hasnt had ideal conditions either start this season, despite two excellent runs.
Also, having a run in advance of the guineas isnt really an advantage bearing in mind that the guineas is almost always won by a horse on its first time out, and AOB keeps his fresh for the day almost every year. The fact that delegator ran beforehand is simply a different training method preferred (or deemed appropriate in this instance) by his trainer.
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Just because the 2000 Guineas is usually won by a horse making its reappearance doesn’t mean a previous run isn’t an advantage, Bulwark – it simply indicates that the better three-year-olds aren’t deemed to require any on-course preparation.
Given how well Delegator maintained his run in the Craven I’m inclined to believe that he wasn’t in any way inconvenienced by yesterday’s race, either in terms of how the race was run or with regard to the state of the ground. He travelled well, showed a decent turn of foot and didn’t appear to be holding anything back – he was just beaten by a better horse.
Were the front two to meet again there’d only be one winner, no matter what ground conditions were like (I don’t think Delegator would be out of place over a flatter mile, or even a strongly-run seven furlongs). That said, it would appear from what John Oxx said after the race that Arazan is on a par with Sea The Stars and is their main hope over a mile for the rest of the season.
Watching the guineas over and over again one horse i would certainly be taking out of it is monitor closely. Was completely taken off his feet after 3 furlongs when the pace quickened and was plum last. He stayed on extremely takenly and will be interested to see him in the dante
Just because the 2000 Guineas is usually won by a horse making its reappearance doesn’t mean a previous run isn’t an advantage, Bulwark – it simply indicates that the better three-year-olds aren’t deemed to require any on-course preparation.
Given how well Delegator maintained his run in the Craven I’m inclined to believe that he wasn’t in any way inconvenienced by yesterday’s race, either in terms of how the race was run or with regard to the state of the ground. He travelled well, showed a decent turn of foot and didn’t appear to be holding anything back – he was just beaten by a better horse.
Were the front two to meet again there’d only be one winner, no matter what ground conditions were like (I don’t think Delegator would be out of place over a flatter mile, or even a strongly-run seven furlongs). That said, it would appear from what John Oxx said after the race that Arazan is on a par with Sea The Stars and is their main hope over a mile for the rest of the season.
Would disagree with quite a lot of that, not all horses are trained the same way. Different trainers use different methods and different horses are trained in different ways. Some horses do their best work on the track and are lazy on the gallops for example and then some trainers just dont have good enough horses for a good one to work alongside, so they will get a prep race. Meehan clearly thought to himself that with where he was with Delegator that a race would do him good in his prep. I dont think he thought to himself "he’s not one of the better 3yos so I’ll give him a run to put him at an advantage over the others".
Also Delegator didnt mainatin his run well in the craven he wondered and clearly didnt like the ground by the way he was moving in the last few furlongs. The pace was slower that day and the opposition weaker, and although he was in better shape on saturday than the craven, he still wasnt perfectly suited to the conditions.
Before the guineas Brian Meehan made it perfectly clear that he didnt want it too fast for Delegator, and Oxx saifd that conditions would be perfect for Sea The Stars. IMO the two horses confirmed exactly what was said about them on the track, but there wasnt enough in it to suggest that it couldnt be reversed with favorable conditions changing hands next time IMO.
I dont think for a second that Sea The Stars is less of a horse than Delegator, I just think they are different horses. STS IMO will prove best at 1m- 1m2f on gd-fm, and Delegator at 1mile on good. It will be interesting to see how both horses do over the season but if the ground is good, the trip is 1 mile and price is acceptable, I’ll give Delegator a second chance.
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Just because he on the Guineas doesn’t mean his favoured ground is on the firm side of good.
The horse has won on soft and improved bundles since then and it’s not like they were looking for a race at a meeting with fast ground for him.
Time will tell beuthe could very well be a better horse on good ground and until we know that your case holds no real substance.
I realise a lot of racing is guesswork but my guesss is you have got it wrong this time.
Another very imprortant factor was that Delegator at no time gave any sign he wasn’t enjoying the ground. He was absolutely cruising when others were being scrubbed a long and quickened when asked. Just wasn’t good/fast enough.
Theres no real substance to my argument in the same way as there was no real substance to my argument when I said after the Craven last year that Ravens Pass on a fast surface would get 1m2f. When everyone else said he didnt see out a mile.
Sometimes you have to use your eyes and watch how a horse moves. STS is a good 2000 gns winner, of course he has won on other surfaces against weaker opposition, likewise Delegator has won on gd-fm against weaker opposition also. Its only when you come up against another horse as good as you who preferes the other surafce that you will be found out.
Who would have thought after the 2004 guineas that Azamour would beat Haafhd in the St James Palace. Who would have thought Araafa would have beaten George Washington on a slower surface after the 2006 guineas. There was a lot more between those two than there was between STS and Delegator and I think its very naive to assume that on any ground STS will always be in front when the two are clearly actioned differently.
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