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Surprised I haven’t heard about fights at Windsor after that Spencer masterclass in the 8.20
that Spencer comment reminded me of this from 2003 (these kinds of things stick in the mind in HK):
wit, what is the legal situation on these matters? Could the police charge the aggressor in a weighing room fight/assault?
Could the police charge the aggressor in a weighing room fight/assault?
It’s an interesting one Joe. In the second minute of the 2014 RL Grand Final, Wigan’s Ben Flower punched St Helens’ stand-off Lance Hohaia unconscious. It was simply an assault. In a newspaper letter, I mooted the idea that had a police officer entered the field of play and arrested Flower on the spot, how could anyone possibly complain?
Sports with extreme levels of physical contact are obviously subject to a higher bar of what’s acceptable than race-riding is, but the Da Silva business didn’t occur during a race – it is in effect violence at a place of work. It would in reality probably need a complaint from Crowley to start any legal proceedings and given the macho nature of racing (and most other sports), I’d say that’s unlikely. Hohaia shrugged off his incident.
Mike
Mike, you may recall the famous criminal case from 1994 of Duncan Ferguson while playing for Rangers head-butting on the field the Raith defender John McStay, who suffered a broken nose. Ferguson was red-carded and McStay did not want to take things any further.
Police at the match however took a different view, upshot of which was that Ferguson was convicted of GBH and served 3 months in Barlinnie prison – despite McStay testifying on behalf of Ferguson that he was winding-up Ferguson throughout the game, and that what happened was normal and had happened before to McStay.
That is one instance of the established law that nobody – not even the victim – can consent to a crime.
In practical terms though, as you say, the authorities tend not to prosecute unless there is a reasonable prospect of conviction, which depends on having sufficient convincing testimony. Unwilling witnesses do not help a case.
The general rule is that sportspeople implicitly consent to things happening within the rules of the sport – which includes absence of malice beyond the sport. It has been found for instance that a football tackle made with intent to break a leg is different from the same physical tackle made with the sole intent of winning the ball.
In the da Silva case, difficult to say that every jockey implictly consents to being physically assaulted by another – particularly back in the changing room.
So, Joe, answer to your question is “yes” but in practice they would not unless they felt they could present to the CPS a case that the CPS would be likely to pursue.
Wit,
Whilst the circumstances you quote re the Duncan Ferguson case are true you have omitted the most important fact.
Ferguson had two previous convictions for assault…the judge at the second case (an unprovoked attack on a 72 year old man at a bus stop!) stated that if Ferguson was before the bench again for any violence related offence he could expect a custodial sentence.So agreed an unusual imprisonment but not at all irrational given the circumstances.
Mike, Hohaia hardly shrugged it off as he had to retire next season due to the injury. There was also talk of him taking legal action against Flower but don’t know if this actually came to fruition.
I do know of a case in an amateur game where a player informed the police of an assault taking place during a game of RL a few days after the game took place. The case went to court and the perpetrator received a CSO and also had to pay damages to the victim. In a physical game such as RL I always believe that what goes on on the field stays on the field.
What has any of this to do with the matter at hand?
A day at the races is meant to be a fun day out for all the family, regardless of colour or creed… or football affiliation, for that matter.
If someone has decided to go to the races for the day, they should have every right to do so in peace.
Mike, Hohaia hardly shrugged it off as he had to retire next season due to the injury.
Yes, I wasn’t meaning that he ‘shrugged off’ the injury itself, more that he didn’t appear to be interested in taking any further action.
Mike
Kieran Fallon’s assault on Stuart Webster was worse than Da Silva’s and he wasn’t prosecuted despite no shortage of witnesses.
The classism and arrogance on this forum astounds me at times. I grew up on a council estate, am fully working class, like football, drink lager, admit i have used drugs in the past and I don’t want to fight when I go to the races.
Feelings from this thread to address
Firstly cocaine is and long associated with the higher class, it is rife in the upper social circles so it is not just a football thing
Never seen a fight at a real ale festival- absolute load of nonsense.i have attended maybe 20 in nice areas generally around the New forest and have seen 3 incidents. For comparison I have been a season ticket holder at Portsmouth (a club synonimous with hooligans) for 15 years attending well over 500 games and have been witness to maybe ten actual violent acts.
The damnation of the football crowd completely ignoring the so fact that rugby players and fans are notorious for late night antics and trouble. Look how many rugby players have been in trouble for fighting compared to footballers. Again a kick in the nuts form the “real ale” brigade
Contrary to uneducated belief cocaine does not make you want to fight, if anything it’s the opposite. I guarantee if you put a room full of people drunk in real ale and a room full of people on cocaine and watched both the drinkers would be more likely to fight.
I am not saying there is not an issue with fighting, drugs at racecourses but it is in no way an epidemic and the sheer arrogance of people to blame a particular type of person is disgusting.
Drops mic..
The classism and arrogance on this forum astounds me at times
I know. Imagine us not wanting to see people get the **** kicked out of them at race-meetings. How stuck-up can you get, eh?
Mike
grasysonsolumn wrote
I don’t know if the above risks taking a slightly reductive view of anyone who sees fit to partake of an alcoholic beverage at a race meeting. Either way, as I’ve probably mentioned before on these pages donkey’s years ago, the issue for me is less about whether any alcohol is drunk and more about what is drunk.
There wouldn’t be anywhere near the same sort of profits returned if racecourse bars stuck to certain types of real ale, but then there wouldn’t necessarily be the same propensity for violence and disorder either.
Or to put it another way:
1) Have you ever tried to chug down as many pints of Old Peculier in an afternoon as pints of strong, cheap nitro-piss? Bet you won’t have got very far – it’s intrinsically harder to drink quicker.
2) Have you ever seen a punch-up of the sorts witnessed at Ascot or Goodwood of late at a real ale festival? Thought not.
My regular carshare friend at point-to-points espouses a further theory. Having seen such footage of the recent brawls as has been made public, he’s convinced that the level and intensity of violence perpetrated could not be performed by people merely full of alcohol, as diminishing returns would eventually kick in and the punches become more mistimed and ultimately aimless.
Instead, there must be some not insignificant element of drug-taking in the mix, too, probably cocaine but not exclusively, and the frequent impossibility of getting into a toilet cubicle to use it for its intended purpose at many Saturday Rules fixtures he’s attended in the recent past just adds to his suspicions.
If there is any kernel of truth in those assertions, and accepting that there’d be little way of checking adequately whether someone had taken a fistful of pills or a wrap in the coach to the races an hour prior, is there nevertheless some mileage in making checks of bags and belongings on entry to the racecourse a heck of a lot more stringent than is currently the case, if indeed not absolutely mandatory for certain high-profile/weekend fixtures?
gc
No GC I was not taking a reductive view of anyone who has a drink before or during racing – I was seriously asking about the attraction as to why people need to consume alcohol in order to relax and enjoy themselves. My point is it is perfectly possible to enjoy a sporting event without consuming alcohol so I really do struggle to understand it when people say they need to drink alcohol to enjoy a day at the races or any other such event …… I can understand it watching an association football match as I cannot think of a more boring sporting contest, then again I would not pay to go and see a football match.
Point 1 – I personally wouldn’t drink either.
Point 2 – yes I have seen punch up-s and antisocial behaviour at beer festivals, including real ale festivals although I concede it’s more likely at the “non”-real ale festivals. Indeed I am working at a beer festival in a few weeks time – the fact they are paying for six of us to cover the event shows they fully expect our services to be required.
Are you advocating racecourses should only sell real ale – knowing you I suspect you are not
– if alcohol is to be sold then a choice should be available.However it is important licensing laws are enforced, which they currently are not …. it’s apparent some racecourses are not able to self police the sale of alcohol in which case it should be down to the licensing authorities to rescind a few licences – that will focus the minds of racecourse executives.
In terms of the Newbury and Goodwood fights these do appear to be pre-arranged fights although alcohol probably helps give those involved the dutch courage to fight …… it’s amazing how many people become heroes after a drink or five.
However incidents I have witnessed at Newmarket and Ascot have been drink fuelled and are, frankly, no different than the fights that will be encountered in most town centres any night of the week.
Regarding drugs, cocaine does have a dopamine effect, which gives more energy but in my experience I have not experienced that many cocaine fighters amongst casual users. It usually needs a massive dose or significant long term usage to cause the taker to be combative and that’s usually the result of the paranoia rather than latent aggression. On the other hand drugs like mephedrone, MDPV or methylone or synthetic marijuana, like Spice will cause aggression ……. I’m not sure how big a problem that is at racecourses.
As for searches – the only way to combat drugs entering the course would be to employ sniffer dogs, which would be prohibitively expensive. Even full baggage searches wouldn’t find that many drugs. The only time I see sniffer dogs routinely employed at a racecourse is at Royal Ascot and they are looking for explosives rather than drugs. A couple of years ago I was used to test the dogs and they are very good indeed at doing their job, all three dogs we tested picked me out.
Also, is full searching practical – I remember after the IRA Grand National, Aintree introduced airport style security in following years and it was a farce …. not all bags were checked and if people refused to submit to a search they were still allowed in.
The classism and arrogance on this forum astounds me at times.
Agreed, speaking as someone of the so-called “working class” from the same area as you; classism/arrogance made by fellow working class astounds me.
Inverted snobbery is just as bad as snobbery and unfortunately I see a lot more of the former these days.
Value Is EverythingThe classism and arrogance on this forum astounds me at times
I know. Imagine us not wanting to see people get the **** kicked out of them at race-meetings. How stuck-up can you get, eh?
Mike
Standard response. I never once disagreed with that sentiment. My point was the way people jump to conclusions about certain groups of people is sad to see. Very narrow minded
Graysonscolumn wrote:
Have you ever tried to chug down as many pints of Old Peculier in an afternoon as pints of strong, cheap nitro-piss? Bet you won’t have got very far – it’s intrinsically harder to drink quicker.
I rarely indulge at all nowadays but used to find it easier to swill real ale than lager or gassy keg beer: a gallon of Tetley Bitter no problem, after the races of course
Old Peculier used to have the reputation of being an unusually strong brew to be consumed with caution; but at abv 5.6% it’s only a tad stronger than Stella, Grolsch, Kronenbourg etc which have an abv around 5%. The mean strength of regulation beers/lagers has increased over the years to the point where those at abv around 3.5% – the standard drinking bitter of my youth – are uncommon. Drinking culture seems to have changed from the agreeably visceral knocking back of several pints of tasty ‘weak’ ale to one where the intention is just to get blasted
My solution to racecourse inebriation would be for them to be permitted to sell only Sam Smith’s Dark Mild at abv 2.8% with perhaps a small premium on top of the pub price of around £1.35 a pint
With the World Cup on the goggler will violence at racecourses diminish for the next few weeks?
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