Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Williescue…you don’t get my angle ?
Kauto Star’s best at Cheltenham was better than Denman’s ??
They met 4 times at Cheltenham and Denman beat him on 3 of those occasions,even after his debilitating heart problems !
What does that tell you ?
And if I may use a football analogy: England perform best at Wembley. If they were to beat Holland three times out of four over three seasons at Wembley, would that "prove" that England are better than Holland? Of course not, because Holland’s overall performance which takes into account playing against different opposition at different venues/tournaments is better than England’s.
Williescue…you don’t get my angle ?
Kauto Star’s best at Cheltenham was better than Denman’s ??
They met 4 times at Cheltenham and Denman beat him on 3 of those occasions,even after his debilitating heart problems !
What does that tell you ?
It doesn’t tell me that Denman was the better horse. It really doesn’t.
Neptune Collonges was improving hand over fist in the 2007/8 season…have a look at his form and he stayed on strongly as Kauto Star had been exhausted trying to keep tabs on Denman which caused him to tire close home,otherwise he would have finished further in front of Neptune Collonges,though the grey horse was no slouch himself !
Kauto Star only beat L’Ami by half a length at Newbury,and lost to Our Vic at Aintree,at level weights also,so what does that prove ?
Proves that Kauto didn’t really like Aintree, I suppose, and wasn’t in love with Newbury either.
Really don’t get your angle on Kauto, AS. On ratings, he is a superior horse to Denman and his best at Cheltenham is better than Denman’s best. As for Kempton, it wouldn’t even have been a contest had they met.
Denman beat Kauto Star 3 times out of 4 at Cheltenham and the 2009 race was a gimmee for Kauto Star as reflected by his odds on starting price, as everyone knew Denman was nowhere near the same horse !
IF he was he would never have started at 7/1 ,or been demolished the way he had been by Madison Du Berlais at Kempton who beat him a lot further than Kauto Star did,whilst Neptune Collonges was injured in the 2009 Gold Cup and didn’t show his true running either.
You cannot compare the form of those 2 Gold Cups…Denman was better when both arrived on the scene in the best of health for the 2008 race and that decided matters once and for all for most,irrespective of what happened afterwards.
So you think Kauto was only a short head better than NC? Was this as good Kauto was at Cheltenham?
Kauto Star was french-bred and was equally at home on soft ground as Denman was.
I wish people would stop clutching at straws and making excuses for Kauto Star’s defeats by Denman,and not exaggerate in saying that Denman could only beat him over 3m 2f at Cheltenham and nowhere else and over no other distance !
Denman was a front-runner and had Kauto Star beat at every point of the 2008 Gold Cup and if the race was run over 2 miles, and any distance you wish to mention, Denman would have prevailed.
He had enough speed to go close to winning the Sun Alliance Novices hurdle also,and I will even ignore the FACT that Denman still returned to defeat Kauto Star twice more after his debilitating heart problem to stress that he beat him fair and square when both horses were at their best aged 8,and at that stage of their careers Denman would have beaten Kauto Star anywhere as far as many are concerned,including the 2007 King George IF Denman had run in it….just watch his imperious performance in the Lexus Chase then for verification…far more impressive than Kauto’s King George win that year.
Well, I’d say that it was clear that Denman’s best form was on soft ground and Kauto’s on good. Denman "best" GC performance in 2008 was on soft with an ailing Kauto a short head in front of Neptune’s Collonges. Kauto then reverses the form in 2009 by 22 lengths the following year to show his true running – and Denman maintains his 8 length margin over NC.
Not sure Denman would’ve beaten Kauto at Kempton. Not sure Denman actually liked running right handed, unlike Kauto who could run anywhere. Kauto’s best performance at Cheltenham also trumps Denman’s by a mile.
I think we also forget that Denman won the 2008 GC on his favoured soft ground and Kauto won the 2009 GC on his favoured good ground – makes a big difference. However, I have no doubt Kauto was the better horse, due to his ability to win anywhere and at different distances.
Fantastic horse who left some wonderful memories behind. I will never forget the ‘comeback’ at Haydock. Most said he should be retired but he proved them all wrong.
Happy retirement, champ.
I like Zarkandar, too, and he wasn’t quite ready for last year’s CH. I do prefer others, though – Simonsig, Grumeti and Grandeout – so he may be placed at best. Also, he received 11lbs off Brampour in the Betfair last season, and carried 11st 1lb. Still a good performance, considering he had the start of a cold according to Nicholls.
And what about if Camelot wins the Arc and connections wish to raise his stud value by attempting to beat Frankel in The Champion? Assuming Camelot doesn’t run as a four year old of course. That would be some race.
Sorry for posting two similar posts. First time user.
