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Quote: from Escorial on 3:58 pm on June 10, 2002[br]<br>The Coronation Cup was a Group 1 race with only one Group 1 winner in the field, running against horses, two of which were the only ones with winning form on the ground, and one of those ran no race, so what did it prove?<br>
In this years Coronation you had following horses:
Boreal: Group I Winner and placed in three more Group I Races
Storming Home: Group II Winner and placed in Group I, II and III Races….. beaten only 3length in the King George VI And Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes
Zindabad: fresh Group II and Group III winner.
Marieband: Group II winner this year and last year and placed in Group I Races
Kutub: 3 times Group I winner…….. had not his race
The best Rating (PM) before the race have been:
Storming Home  PM 126 (King George VI And Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes)<br>Kutub 122 (Preis von Europa, Jockey Club Stakes) <br>Marienbard 121 (Jockey Club Stakes) <br>Boreal 118 (Grosser Preis von Baden & Dubai Sheema Classic) <br>Zindabad 118 (Yorkshire Cup, Jockey Club Stakes)
And to horses like Carnegie, Urban Sea, White Muzzle, Apple Tree, User Friendly, Snurge, Singspiel, Oscar Schindler, Royal Anthem, Dream Well, Silver Patriarch, Fruits Of Love, Fantastic Light, Sagamix, Swain, Luso, Wellbeing and Petrushka tried to win this race in the last few years……. and the winners are horses like
1992: Saddlers´ Hall (PM 120) <br>1993: Opera House (PM 118) <br>1994: Apple Tree (PM 119) <br>1995: Sunshack (PM 118) <br>1996: Swain (PM 120) <br>1997: Singspiel (PM 126) <br>1998: Silver Patriarch (PM 125) <br>1999: Daylami (PM 126) <br>2000: Daliapour (PM 124) <br>2001: Mutafaweq (PM 122)
Would does a race need to become a Group I ???<br>And to be honest I am quite happy this is a Group I …. because if not England would have only one Group I race for older horses over this distance.
:pimp:
<br>
@ Escorial,
I totally agree with you about horses named to fast a SUPERSTAR or the best Horse of the last 30 years or anything like that. Personally I think you do have very seldom this kind of horses and three or four in one Year is something “impossibleâ€ÂÂ
@ Escorial
Of course I do not rate the German Derby as high like the English or Frech Derby, my personal Derby List is:
1.) Irish Derby<br>2.) English Derby<br>3.) French Derby<br>4.) German Derby<br>5.) Italian Derby
The reason for me to put the Irish Derby ahead of the French & English is that you very often find the winner of those two Derby’s running in the Irish Version.
But now back to last year German Derby what was raced on ground much more softer than the official going (soft), I would consider the ground at least soft/heavy if not heavy. And yes you are right; most people were concerned that the Favourite was withdrawn on the morning of the race because of the ground (what was a good decision by the connections).
Saying all that I have to say as well that the winner of the German Derby, or let’s say the German breed three-year-old is compared to an english/irish/french breed three-year-old more backward. It is normal that they improve a lot from three to four and even from four to five. That means that a German three-year old would find it hard to race against International horses before the month of July. Most German trainers wait until they are four years old before they go on to run worldwide. Some of the Top German Horses in the last years have been Lando, Monsun, Sternkönig, Tiger Hill, Samum, Boreal, Silvano and many more. All this horses are true Group I horses.
You mentioned the Preis von Europa were Boreal was beaten by Yavana’s Pace for example…yes he was beaten on this day…. but he slipped in the curve and was a faller. This form should not be counted.
In your post you mention some horses Boreal could face in the next few races… I will not look on Fantastic Light and Galilio as they are both retired. And personally I think every horse worldwide will have very big problems to beat Sakhee on turf. As well the first two from this years English Derby are looking very good.
But as well I think Boreal should have no problems to beat Aquarelliste and Banks Hill in a race. If he would beat the first and second from the French Derby…. I think at leas he would give them a very hard fight for the money.
Using the Postmark from the Racing Post the Race (for the fourth place) would look like that…..
Banks Hill 126 (on 10furlongs)<br>Boreal 124<br>Sulamani 124<br>Act One 122<br>Aquarelliste 121
Now to the last point I want to mention in my post……… I think the Coronation Cup is a real Group I race, winners like in the last ten years are proofing this point. And this years race might not have been the best race in history (nobody says that) but it was not a bad one as well.
Marieband was a fresh Group II winner in England, Zindebaad was a Group II and III winner this year in England and Storming Home was only beaten 3 length by the GREAT Galileo and Fantastic Light in last years King George, Boreal beat him 3 ½ length. I will not mention Kutub as this form is not his true one.
I do not mean to make this clear that Boreal is one of the best horses in the World like Galileo, Fantastic Light, Sakhee, High Chaparral or Hawk Wing but he is a proper Group I horse.
Escorial I think you do one big mistake ……… horses in the league of Fantastic Light and Sakhee are more than Group I horses……….. they are the superstars of racing. But there are many Group I horses around, what are not as good but still are proper Group I horses.
:pimp:
And now to the form of Boreal, after wining the Deutsche Derby he raced in Credit Suisse Private Banking Pokal (Group 1) in Cologne and became second behind Sabiango (Derby Favorite and withdrawn on Derby day). After that race he showed his best form 2001 in the Grosser Preis von Baden (Group 1) in Baden-Baden where he was beaten little more than one length by Morshdi, but this time he was in front of Sabiango. His last race of the season was in the Preis von Europa (Group 1) in Cologne where he started Favorite, but he slipped and fall.
This year he raced twice…….. 3rd in the Dubai Sheema Classic (Group 1) in Dubai and like we all know winner of the Coronation Cup in Epson.
I think a horse that won the Deutsche Derby (Group I) and the Coronation Cup (Group I) and what placed in three other Group I races must be called a Group I horse. Not every horse can win the King George and the Arc.
<br>:pimp:
Hello Escorial, I am sorry but I have to correct you in a couple of statements you have done about the German Derby.
You said the Geraman Derby produced noting at all and I can not agree to that. The main mistake you have done when checking the Derby Form was that you relied on the From provided by the Racing Post in the Internet. But this is a mistake as the Racingpost does not use Listed Races or German Maiden Races and you missed through many forms. There was for example that now horse a Maiden Horse in the Derby and a horse like Lierac had more than one run before the Derby.
And as well last years Derby was a “strangeâ€ÂÂ
14 Length beetween the Second and the Third….. why not. Maybe they are outstanding Fillies over this distance and the rest is just "normal" Oaks Quality.
I think Kazzia will have no problem with the St. Leger Trip….. it looks a great idea to me. :pimp:
1 Kazzia <br> <br>made all, clear with runner-up over 2f out, hard ridden over 1f out, held on well near finish<br> <br>2 Quarter Moon <br> <br>held up rear, progress and 4th straight, chased winner well over 2f out, hard ridden to challenge 1f out, kept on well, always just held
3 Shadow Dancing <br> <br>midfield, pushed along halfway, 6th straight, stayed on under pressure to take remote 3rd last strides<br> <br>4 Starbourne <br> <br>chased winner after 3f to over 6f out, 3rd and ridden straight, kept on to chase clear leading pair over 1f out, edged left and lost 3rd near finish<br> <br>5 Red Rioja <br> <br>towards rear, 9th and ridden straight, stayed on one pace under pressure from over 2f out, hampered near finish<br>
Maybe some people think I have blue glasses…..but they are black :cool:
But letâ€ÂÂ
Grandera will not run at Royal Ascot (like expected) …. <br>Simon Crisford : "We’ll probably hold Grandera back forthe second half of the season – he or Sakhee may be Eclipse types. What it means is missing Royal Ascot with a long term view in mind."
But second placed horse (Paolini) from the Singapore Airlines International Race will run at Royal Ascot in the Prince of Wales’s Stakes over 1m2f.
:pimp:
Hi, its me again :wave:
Rating (PM) of the Eclipse Stakes winner on the day of the Race and Rating from Grandera after his win in Far East……:o …I think that shows clearly that this horse has the form and class to win the race. I am saying nothing more……:cool:
Giants Causeway 129<br>Pilduski 128<br>Halling 127<br>Daylami 126<br>Kooyonga 124<br>Grandera 123<br>Compton Admiral 123<br>Opera house 121<br>Halling 120<br>Medicean 120<br>Ezzoud 119
And do not forget how Godolphin managed a other horse a few years ago….a three year old who joined the team after two Group wins (GII & GIII) and a win in a Listed Race at the end of the season……at the start of his four year old career he won a “littleâ€ÂÂ
To robgomm:<br>Last year’s Eclipse was hardly conclusive was it? Maybe…..but like I said, Grandera would have been placed or would have one the last 10 Eclipse Stakes with the form from Singapore. Not only last years. :)
to robgomm & prince regent
When do you consider a horse a "real" Group I horse.<br>For me Grandera is one….. in England, Irland or anywhere else :biggrin:
<br>Milan, Sagacuty, Bach, Tobougg, Black Minnaloushe and Medicean just to name a few horses Grandera beat last year when he was placed in three Group I Races. I think a horse beaten in the French Derby (not a great race last year) by ½ length, beaten in the Eclipse by ½ length and second to the “monsterâ€ÂÂ
to prince regent :wave: it’s me again
I think the season is still young and we have to wait a few more weeks, probably month until we know the class of some horses. But in the moment a PM of 123 like Grandera got for the race is a Postemark for winning Group I Races dosn’ t metter where in the World. If in England, France, USA or far East.
But let’s have a look on the Eclipes Stakes in the last ten years…… with a PM of 123 Grandera would have one the Eclipse Stakes 5 times and would have been placed at the other 5 races….. That makes him a horse for the Eclipse, if he runs or not …. only time..;). ..ahhh I mean Godophin will tell us.:biggrin:
By the way….Paolini’s main aim this season will be the Canadian International, but before his conections are thinking about a start at Royal Ascot in the Prince of Wales’s Stakes.
:pimp:
to prince regent:
Which english horse was the last winning the Arlington Million…..??? :cool:
The reason I posted the RP article is to show (you) what the "experts" think of the race featured high-class runners from seven countries and you are saying it is not a true Group I race.
to prince regent:
Even if you take out the "Asian" Horses you have a strong race with a two times Group I winner in Paolini and Hawkeye Group winner and Group I placed.
And just luck on the other Godolphin runner Atlantis Prince he was beaten by more than 10 lenght.
The old but still good Indiginous will be campagned in the Top European 10-12f races during this summer. He was beaten 4,5 lenght to the winner…..in December he became third behind Stay Gold (beaten 6 lenght) who wone …. I do not know how many Group Races.
Please do not misunderstand me…:o … I do not think that Grandera will have a chance for one second against the mighty Sakhee…. but against horses like Golan and Carnival Dancer he will have a chance to win…. :pimp:
After Race Report from the Racing Post:
Godolphin have acquired yet another major player for the World Series in the shape of Grandera, who scored an impressive first win in their colours in a dramatic Singapore International Airlines Cup on Saturday.<br>The heavily supported former James Fanshawe-trained four-year-old now heads stablemate Street Cry and Eishin Preston in the World<br>Series rankings after coming from off the pace to beat German challenger Paolini by two lengths in a fast-run race that  featured high-class runners from seven countries. British challenger Hawkeye found the trip too sharp and finished fifth.
Simon Crisford after the Race:
Simon Crisford, the Godolphin racing manager, said: "This is a truly international event and we are delighted to have won it. Sheikh Mohammed is a great believer in international racing and saw this horse as an ideal flag-bearer for Godolphin. Although we don’t want to make a decision in the heat of battle, we’ll talk about the Arlington Million in Chicago on August 17, and I doubt if you’ll see him before then.
I think you need a very good horse to win the Eclipse Stakes or the International…..but  as well it need’s a very good horse to win the Arington Million.
:pimp:
The form in Singapour was the best form from Grandera until today. PM (PostMark) gave him a PM of 123 for this performance. For his places in the Eclipse Stakes and the International he earned a two PMs of 119. His best performance came when he won the Dubai Arc Trial (PM 121) by 1,5 length. And do not forget, he was placed in the Franc Derby as well (his fourth best form last year).
And the race in Singapour is better like some people think.
Paolini: Second best German 1m2f horse last year (only Silvano was better). Needs firm ground to show his best form and won two Group I Races in Italy over 1m2f and 1m4f. Beating horses like the 3time Group I winner Kutub and the classic winning filly Super Tassa.
Indigenous: Placed in the top races in Asia like the Hong Kong Vase or the Queen Elizabeth II Cup. Yes he has not won for quite a while but he is running always to a rating of 113 – 119.
Olympic Express: Improved a lot since his move to Hong Kong. Won the Hong Kong Derby
HAWKEYE: The horse with the freshest England Form. Winner of a Group III in Irland during the Summer he was placed in the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes behind Summoner, placed in the Dubai Champion Stakes behind Nayef and Tobougg and in the Prix du Moulin de Longchamp behind .<br>So do not say the race in Singapour is a Group I only in Name……:pimp:<br>
I know the race was not in England/Irland and some people do not like the form of that race so much. But make no mistake, this was not only a Group I Race it was as well a World Series Race and Grandera won against some very good horses. If he has a chance in a race like the Eclipse we do not know today, because we will not know what runs against him in a race like the Eclipse, but if his team (Godolphin) decides to takle a race like the Eclipse or th International he is in with quite some chances.
Did you forget he was second last year in the International and the Eclipse? And this years form in Singapore is not a bad one. It was a true Group I Race and he beat same all quit easy. The only older horses I would fear would be Sakhee and maybe Nayef. And they will probably not run against each other. But other older horses ? No way.<br>
