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Halfway house, i bet they don’t meet each other at the apple blossom. The only thing they will play each other at is dodgems. Zenyatta will re-appear at Santa Anita, where upon connection or trainer will rule her out of the clash.
JH _ When did he say her best performance was on dirt, before her two classic wins or after them ? I bet you next season when the topic arises, that Shireffs says she is better on the pro ride !
Halfway house, i bet they don’t meet each other at the apple blossom. The only thing they will play each other at is dodgems. Zenyatta will re-appear at Santa Anita, where upon connection or trainer will rule her out of the clash.
JH _ When did he say her best performance was on dirt, before her two classic wins or after them ? I bet you next season when the topic arises, that Shireffs says she is better on the pro ride !
Haha ‘Halfway house’. Very good
Need we forget you used to be a ‘donkey’
I only had donkey in my original moniker to commemorate Gordons selection for the 2009 Gold Cup.
Goldikova-
John Shirreffs has said several times that Zenyatta is better on dirt. Here are two sources, if you want more Google is your friend.
"She (Zenyatta) won on dirt in Arkansas and she never looked better. She can run on any surface."
— John Shirreffs, trainer of Zenyattahttp://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/index … nberg.html
"Shirreffs has maintained that Zenyatta is more effective on dirt than she is on synthetic."
ESPN from DRF
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/ … id=4832070
and from Jerry Moss, Zenyatta’s Owner, in the ESPN link
"I would say we’re probably going to travel a bit," Moss said. "I’d like to see her run in some dirt races."
Zenyatta’s people definitely want to go after RA on her own turf or own dirt if you prefer. Of course it’s a long way to the 2010 BCC at Churchill Downs and anything can happen between now and then. At this point, Zenyatta is a bit further along in her training than Rachel Alexandra so a meeting in the Apple Blossom at Oaklawn Apr. 3 probably depends more on RA being ready than Zenyatta. I’m sure Oaklawn would move the date or increase the purse or both to make the race happen.
Also, from the second link in my post on page 3 of this topic;
"Shirreffs told DRF that no decision has been made on Zenyatta’s schedule, but indicated that they would like to return to Oaklawn Park for the Apple Blossom Handicap (gr. I) in Hot Springs, Ark., on April 3."
More on dirt vs. synthetic (Pro-Ride at Santa Anita)from Art Wilson’s "Inside Horse Racing";
"A high-ranking Santa Anita official told me recently that Pro-Ride will almost certainly be gone by next Oak Tree meeting, replaced by a natural dirt surface."
Seems the Pro-Ride track didn’t handle the recent rains very well, though better than the other synthetic it replaced. Yes, it does sometimes rain in California, especially in the North but occasionally heavily in Southern California. This is a useful So. Califonia HR blog;
http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/
John Shirreffs has also expressed a dislike for synthetic tracks. You’ll just have to take my word for this Goldi – or Google your own quotes.
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Had you not backed Zarkava for the Arc and Zenyatta for the Breeders’ Cup, Fist, but had instead been availing yourself of every price available about Sea The Stars throughout the season, I can almost guarantee that you’d be singing a very different tune. That said, you seem to be under the rather bemusing impression that your opinions constitute fact when, in reality, they’re no less star-struck than anyone else’s.
As I said before you have changed your mind about the relative abilities of Sea The Stars, Rip Van Winkle and Conduit so often that it’s impossible to work out what you really think, but having now convinced yourself that Zarkava and Zenyatta were/are both the second coming your arguments for them contradict your arguments against Sea The Stars.
I think we’ve established that every horse has a way of running, a style which sees them perform to best effect. Zarkava and Zenyatta were/are hold up horses (notice the use of the phrase ‘hold up’, not to be confused with ‘chased leaders’, ‘covered up’ or ‘raced prominently’). Sea The Stars was a strong traveller who quickened and idled. Why does the style of the former pair entitle them to greater praise than the latter? How hard were they actually having to work? You’ve already cited Harchibald’s tendency to canter and find nothing, so why do you assume Zarkava and Zenyatta would keep going under heavy pressure (not withstanding that Zenyatta didn’t win the Breeders’ Cup even remotely easily)? Why wouldn’t Sea The Stars pick up again, as he did in the Eclipse, were either filly to get to his shoulder?
You can’t quantify or qualify your argument because no-one can – it’s impossible to accurately relate such vastly different animals without actual racecourse evidence. Sea The Stars idled in beating Youmzain by two lengths, receiving 8lb and winning in a time 4.2s quicker than standard. Zarkava finished strongly in beating Youmzain by two lengths, receiving 11lb and winning a time 1.7s quicker than standard. How do they compare? Zarkava certainly doesn’t come out best. But what about Dylan Thomas? He battled in beating Youmzain by a head, racing off level weights and winning in a time 2s quicker than standard. Do you believe he’s a superstar, having run quicker than Zarkava on identical ground?
Zenyatta is good. She’s very good. She’s very, very good. She may well be the most talented racehorse since Secretariat. But any assertion, at this stage, that she’s anything other than top class is without undeniable foundation and is hence no more a reliable appraisal than the premise that Sea The Stars would have given her a race.
If Zenyatta beats Rachel Alexandra, who has by far the strongest form, having given her 15 lengths then she’ll have confirmed herself as a truly exceptional mare (it still won’t settle the Zenyatta vs Zarkava vs Sea The Stars debate though). Until then, such lavish unsubstantiated praise is a little over the top. In my opinion of course.
By the way, does anyone know how to deal with being star stricken? Is there a cream or gel I can use?
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That bullsh1t with a capital "B"
I said of Zarkava she was the new Sea Bird II which was to emphasise the point she wasn’t just a filly beating fillies but an exceptional horse. I got all the crap under the sun thrown at me that she wasn’t.
By pure chance along comes Zenyatta who for all the world to me looked like Zarkva but bigger strongerand even faster.
Again it was she beat nothing.
During all this time I am thinking to myself what the hell has Sea the Stars beat that says he is anywhere as good as the fillies?
All I can see is people saying he could only beat what’s put i front of him.
That doesn’t make a horse a champion in my book. A horse that can travel like he can is obviously very good and yes he deserves to be called special but he will never be great in my eyes.
The way I look at it is swap him for Zarkava against Fame and Glory she wouldn’t have had to be picked up off the ground like Sea the Stars was she’d have cruised past him like he had lead in his boots. Zenyatta would have gone past him so quickly he’d probably been blown of the track.
Tell me something: What do people actually mean when one questions Sea the Stars inability to put distance between him and others like Mill Reef did? He’s not that type of horse means exactly what?
I saw Zenyatta win by big distances and she had only just got into top gear I saw Zarkava do the same but Sea the Stars simply did not have the ability to do that.
I said what I said about Zarkava and Zenyatta because I thought we were seeing 2 great fillies not because I happened to win bundles of cash off them after they won.
Am I anymore enthusiatic about the horses now as I was back then…..I doubt it.
I nver got that same feeling about Sea the Stars and the hype was unbelievable. That ozzie McGrath had the punters seeing things that simply weren’t happening….he lost ground???? wtf he going on about they had gone 2 friggin furlongs…….he’s got 7 lengths to make up…..try 3 lengths
Then we had: "An impressive success would throw up the exciting possibility that his rating would not only be confirmed at 140, but could be even higher, taking him into the realms of Brigadier Gerard"
Yeah sure til they realised Zarkava was amore impressive winner than Sea the Stars against the same horse and they had her on 132 so couldn’t get away with it……so all of a sudden he’s a 136 horse.
I’m sorry mate but youare way of the mark I give credit where credit is due and I am not influenced after the fact just because I bet something.
I made a lot off money off Deep Purple and Denman this season but you didn’t hear me say either was better than Kauto Star so your staemnt hold no water whatsoever with me. In fact I have said I think Imperial Commander who cost me money could finish in front of Denman in the Gold Cup……..poorly thought out statement to make to try and get your point of view over.
- Total Posts 17716
As of 3:36AM our time, Zenyatta is officially not the American Horse of the Year, by a pretty sizeable margin:
http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-ra … 72972/top/The caravanserai moves on!
"By the way, does anyone know how to deal with being star stricken? Is there a cream or gel I can use?"
Try reading an autobiography of the hero in question. That usually does the trick.
That Eclipse Award was a tough decision. I think I’d have gone on holiday when the votes were due. They should have shared it imo.
Rachel Alexandra won HOTY by some marigin, and deservedly so, in my opinion.
Fist; re: Sea The Stars. Either you’re in denial over his merit or true worth or you’re just being belligerent in order to justify your long held ( and, if I may say so, misjudged ) opinion of the Oxx colt. Nearly every time he ran, you made out some tenuous case how he would meet with defeat. Each time you were proved wrong. I detected a hint of frustration from you following each of his Group 1 wins.
In your defence though, I concede that we’ve all been there, as intransigence and prejudice can blind everyone at certain times. The bottom line being that most of us we hate being proved wrong, especially when we think we’re so right.
Yes, it’s all about opinions, but to pick faults with Sea The Stars seems petty to me; he was top drawer, and his Irish Champion Stakes and Arc victories more than proved that. Like all great champions, Sea The Stars always found a way to win, and that’s what separates the truly great competitors from the mere ordinary mortals.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
- Total Posts 17716
She deserves her win as she has achieved more but it doesn’t make her a better horse. We have racetracks for that but I can hear clucking already
.It would appear she wouldn’t have been our choice, not by any stretch of the imagination but that can be put down to our horses going for the Breeders and getting blown away. Wouldn’t surprise me if half those who voted on the RP website have ever seen Rachel.
Look mate let me make something perfectly clear hear…Sea the Stars to me is a 136 horse at best nothing more nothing less and he never met anything in the same class as Zenyatta, Zarkava or Rachel for that matter.
Unless I am mistaken I looked up his final rating which is 136 a rating which means the powers that be rate over 50 horses as good as he was and in over 40 of those cases better.
You say I am the one in denial but you’re backing that up with what? Did he put up a better performance than Zarkava in the Arc? If you think he did why?
Maybe it is just me. But he never gave me goosebumps or had me jumping out of my seat until the Arc. I thought that was him at his very best and not when beating the miler Rip Van Winkle. Timeform can only justify his 136 rating if they say it was as Zarkava won the Arc in much better fashion and greater ease than he did.
On the up side I don’t agree with those 50 horses being in the same league or better than Sea the Stars. A lot are overrated and wouldn’t have got him off the bridle IMO but he just wasn’t a Nijinsky in my opinion.
Zarkava was a brilliant filly. Her Arc win was superb but, like Zenyatta, she only took on the colts once – at the tail end of the season. I loved Zarkava to bits; I lumped on her for the Arc. She left some good horses toiling. It’s all subjective, and guesswork, but do I think she would have left Sea The Stars toiling in the same mannner. Not on your nelly. Sea The Stars had extra gears which I honestly don’t think Zarkava had. Like Dancing Brave and Nijinsky, she had one helluva kick, but she, like them, had to come late and fast.
Sea The Stars, like Sea Bird II, and Mill Reef to an extent, had an extremely high cruising speed, and like them, could be put anywhere in the field and have any amount of opposing tactic employed against him, whether he was boxed, held back, or stopped in his tracks, he could still find the wherewithal to find the extra gears to get his head in front where it mattered – and he was as brave as a lion. His winning race times also speak for themselves.
Again, I cite higher authorities than us; namely Ian Balding and Lester Piggott, both of whom conceded that Sea The Stars, in their opinion, was even better than either Mill Reef or Nijinsky.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
That bullsh1t with a capital "B"
I said of Zarkava she was the new Sea Bird II which was to emphasise the point she wasn’t just a filly beating fillies but an exceptional horse. I got all the crap under the sun thrown at me that she wasn’t.
By pure chance along comes Zenyatta who for all the world to me looked like Zarkva but bigger strongerand even faster.
Again it was she beat nothing.
During all this time I am thinking to myself what the hell has Sea the Stars beat that says he is anywhere as good as the fillies?
All I can see is people saying he could only beat what’s put i front of him.
That doesn’t make a horse a champion in my book. A horse that can travel like he can is obviously very good and yes he deserves to be called special but he will never be great in my eyes.
The way I look at it is swap him for Zarkava against Fame and Glory she wouldn’t have had to be picked up off the ground like Sea the Stars was she’d have cruised past him like he had lead in his boots. Zenyatta would have gone past him so quickly he’d probably been blown of the track.
Tell me something: What do people actually mean when one questions Sea the Stars inability to put distance between him and others like Mill Reef did? He’s not that type of horse means exactly what?
I saw Zenyatta win by big distances and she had only just got into top gear I saw Zarkava do the same but Sea the Stars simply did not have the ability to do that.
I said what I said about Zarkava and Zenyatta because I thought we were seeing 2 great fillies not because I happened to win bundles of cash off them after they won.
Am I anymore enthusiatic about the horses now as I was back then…..I doubt it.
I nver got that same feeling about Sea the Stars and the hype was unbelievable. That ozzie McGrath had the punters seeing things that simply weren’t happening….he lost ground???? wtf he going on about they had gone 2 friggin furlongs…….he’s got 7 lengths to make up…..try 3 lengths
Then we had: "An impressive success would throw up the exciting possibility that his rating would not only be confirmed at 140, but could be even higher, taking him into the realms of Brigadier Gerard"
Yeah sure til they realised Zarkava was amore impressive winner than Sea the Stars against the same horse and they had her on 132 so couldn’t get away with it……so all of a sudden he’s a 136 horse.
I’m sorry mate but youare way of the mark I give credit where credit is due and I am not influenced after the fact just because I bet something.
I made a lot off money off Deep Purple and Denman this season but you didn’t hear me say either was better than Kauto Star so your staemnt hold no water whatsoever with me. In fact I have said I think Imperial Commander who cost me money could finish in front of Denman in the Gold Cup……..poorly thought out statement to make to try and get your point of view over.
Fist,
You have constantly said Sea The Stars beat nothing, which is totally untrue. He either beat (or beat those who beat) almost all of the Group 1 winners last year; from a mile to a mile and a half. The Eclipse and Irish Champion work out particularly well on form.THE ARC WAS NOT SEA THE STARS BEST PERFORMANCE. SEA THE STARS IS NOT RATED ON THAT RACE.
Yet you have again and again failed to show how you worked out this "140+" rating. Your arguement is ripped to shreds because you can not do so.
Zenyatta beat comparitively poor fields of females by longish distances. The one time she met a top class field she won, but it was not by a long distance. And the other exceptional horse in the field (Rip Van Winkle) ran poorly. So Zenyatta had less to beat. The placed horses, although Group 1 animals, were NOT of the very top quality. Therefore there is NO WAY any reasonable form student can rate Zenyatta 140+. She may be capable of better, but so far she aint a 140.
Sea The Stars idling matters little. His form in both the Eclipse and Irish Champion can (imo) be rated very highly. He can also be rated a pound or two above his performance rating because of the ease of victory. As Zenyatta can be rated a pound or two higher than her performance rating, for ease of victory. Difference being she met nothing capable of the same form as Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory or Mastercraftsman at the time they met. I say again, it does not matter that those three lost their form at the end of a hard season. As the form had already been franked.
Value Is EverythingBosranic, opinions is what this sport is all about, and dont get me wrong, I think Zenyatta is a fantastic mare, I just prefer RA!! But to say that Zenyatta is a ‘beautiful horse’ is really stretching it!!! Great horse that she is, she is one of THE most unattractive race-horses Ive ever seen!! A slightly better version of Nortons Coin!!!
Bosranic, opinions is what this sport is all about, and dont get me wrong, I think Zenyatta is a fantastic mare, I just prefer RA!! But to say that Zenyatta is a ‘beautiful horse’ is really stretching it!!! Great horse that she is, she is one of THE most unattractive race-horses Ive ever seen!! A slightly better version of Nortons Coin!!!
A darker version of Keen leader,with the same action!Different class mind!
Zarkava was a brilliant filly. Her Arc win was superb but, like Zenyatta, she only took on the colts once – at the tail end of the season. I loved Zarkava to bits; I lumped on her for the Arc. She left some good horses toiling. It’s all subjective, and guesswork, but do I think she would have left Sea The Stars toiling in the same mannner. Not on your nelly. Sea The Stars had extra gears which I honestly don’t think Zarkava had. Like Dancing Brave and Nijinsky, she had one helluva kick, but she, like them, had to come late and fast.
Sea The Stars, like Sea Bird II, and Mill Reef to an extent, had an extremely high cruising speed, and like them, could be put anywhere in the field and have any amount of opposing tactic employed against him, whether he was boxed, held back, or stopped in his tracks, he could still find the wherewithal to find the extra gears to get his head in front where it mattered – and he was as brave as a lion. His winning race times also speak for themselves.
Again, I cite higher authorities than us; namely Ian Balding and Lester Piggott, both of whom conceded that Sea The Stars, in their opinion, was even better than either Mill Reef or Nijinsky.
Word perfect from the man "Himself"! Fists problem is the fact,where as i am the King of the flat,he is the pauper! We both failed longer than most to recognise the brilliance that was Sea the Stars,but at least i eventually did!He is just a stubborn old sausage!Media Gecko asks if there is a cream or a gel to ease the irritation of being starstruck!I would suggest reading the posts of "Preperation "H"!Apply liberally!
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