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Sea the Stars beat Twice Over by 17 & 1/2 lengths, Zenyatta beat him by a comfortable 2 & 1/4 lengths. Yes i know it’s pretty much irrelevant, but it shows you how easy it is to manipulate performances like everyone else. It’s still a fact though, you still like facts Halfway ?
Posted a few facts above
Sea The Stars beat Twice Over. Your right.
At Sandown, over a mile further, a different surface and when Twice Over was giving STS 10lbs.
STS also beat Rip Van Winkle by 1 length in the same race. Zenyatta beat RVW by 17 lengths whilst giving a pound in weight to him
There’s more facts for you Goldi
Sea the Stars beat Twice Over by 17 & 1/2 lengths, Zenyatta beat him by a comfortable 2 & 1/4 lengths. Yes i know it’s pretty much irrelevant, but it shows you how easy it is to manipulate performances like everyone else. It’s still a fact though, you still like facts Halfway ?
Posted a few facts above
Sea The Stars beat Twice Over. Your right.
At Sandown, over a mile further, a different surface and when Twice Over was giving STS 10lbs.
STS also beat Rip Van Winkle by 1 length in the same race. Zenyatta beat RVW by 17 lengths whilst giving a pound in weight to him
There’s more facts for you Goldi
No it wasn’t over a mile further at all, they were both 10 furlongs. Neither horse had to travel 8000 miles to meet at Sandown. If you take the weight for winning distance allowance, then STS performance still comes out on top.
Lets have a look and see what Zenyatta’s has beaten throughout her career…..oh look a grass horse in Gio Ponti and Twice Over who travelled 8000 miles to race in a climate and surface he wasn’t used to. RVW didn’t turn up.
You said RA was flat out, yet conveinantly dismiss the fact she was facing older colts at 3 years old, and Zenyatta waited until she was 5, after the top opponents had been withdrawn from the race.
Sea the Stars beat Twice Over by 17 & 1/2 lengths, Zenyatta beat him by a comfortable 2 & 1/4 lengths. Yes i know it’s pretty much irrelevant, but it shows you how easy it is to manipulate performances like everyone else. It’s still a fact though, you still like facts Halfway ?
Posted a few facts above
Sea The Stars beat Twice Over. Your right.
At Sandown, over a furlong further, a different surface and when Twice Over was giving STS 10lbs.
STS also beat Rip Van Winkle by 1 length in the same race. Zenyatta beat RVW by 17 lengths whilst giving a pound in weight to him
There’s more facts for you Goldi
No it wasn’t over a mile further at all, they were both 10 furlongs. Neither horse had to travel 8000 miles to meet at Sandown. If you take the weight for winning distance allowance, then STS performance still comes out on top.
Lets have a look and see what Zenyatta’s has beaten throughout her career.
You said RA was flat out, yet conveinantly dismiss the fact she was facing older colts at 3 years old, and Zenyattas waited until she was 5, after the top opponents were withdrawn from the race.
My mistake on putting a mile. I meant to put a furlong. Accidental typo error. I am well aware Sea The Stars has never won over 2m1f
My fingers, however, are not.Cmon Goldi – even you can appreciate those older males she was facing in the Woodward were a bunch of off form has-beens.
Asiatic Boy had barely placed since transferring back to America. Macho Again had, fair play, hit a little bit of form but the rest had no right to be in a G1.
If Jess Jackson really wanted to show that his girl had what it took he could’ve picked far harder races than last years Woodward.
As for what has Zenyatta beat – don’t even get me started on how much the pro-ride surface suits turf horses. We’ve seen how well it works for us Europeans for the last two years.
One of these days Rachel and Z will meet, it’ll be the best match up in years and i’ll be happy to offer up a side wager to anyone who fancies it (dependent on quantity!). If anyone wants to put their money where their mouth is then PM me.
It’s all a light hearted bit of fun. I think Z is a machine, you guys think Rachel is the best thing since sliced bread.
Zenyatta isnt the one shying away from Rachel though is she? The connections have made a bold statement that they want to run against her by putting her back in training. Why would they do that to her before if they think she can do it now? Pure speculation that they waited until Rachel dropped out of the Classic.
I know which one i’d rather be on
Excellant post Media Gecko.
There is NO formline to suggest Zenyatta is a 140+ horse.
What had Gio Ponti done before his Classic performance? Is Twice Over a real top class racehorse? He won a fair Champion Stakes, though Sariska probably ran below form. Can see he may have improved a pound or two, but given his previously exposed form, nothing significant. The form of this years Classic is not outstanding.So all you are basing 140+ on is how easily she won. Many horses win easily, does not mean they have stones in hand. Just because a horse wins a lot of (comparitively) weak group 1’s; does NOT make her form any better than one who’s won fewer races.
Gio Ponti won 4 excellent Grade 1s on the turf, his recent loss coming on a Belmont track which would be labeled "soft to heavy". Gio’s competition was likely not at the same level as in Europe, but he is the certain Eclipse Champion Turf Male, and possibly Champion Older Male.
Having viewed most of both Zenyatta’s and Rachel Alexandra’s races – and considering myself not a bad judge ( if I say so myself
); I would definitely back Rachel Alexandra to beat Zenyatta. Her performances have impressed me even more than Zenyatta’s. I think RA has a wonderful style of running, with speed to burn, and would gallop the finish out of Zenyatta.Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Cmon Goldi – even you can appreciate those older males she was facing in the Woodward were a bunch of off form has-beens.Asiatic Boy had barely placed since transferring back to America. Macho Again had, fair play, hit a little bit of form but the rest had no right to be in a G1.
If Jess Jackson really wanted to show that his girl had what it took he could’ve picked far harder races than last years Woodward.
As for what has Zenyatta beat – don’t even get me started on how much the pro-ride surface suits turf horses. We’ve seen how well it works for us Europeans for the last two years.
One of these days Rachel and Z will meet, it’ll be the best match up in years and i’ll be happy to offer up a side wager to anyone who fancies it (dependent on quantity!). If anyone wants to put their money where their mouth is then PM me.
It’s all a light hearted bit of fun. I think Z is a machine, you guys think Rachel is the best thing since sliced bread.
Zenyatta isnt the one shying away from Rachel though is she? The connections have made a bold statement that they want to run against her by putting her back in training. Why would they do that to her before if they think she can do it now? Pure speculation that they waited until Rachel dropped out of the Classic.
I know which one i’d rather be on[/color:gje01rus]
Well with the comments regarding RA in the Woodward, then you pretty much put a line through Zenyattas whole career, apart from perhaps the ladies Classic and BC classic. Surely what RA beat in the Woodward must be in similar stature to the fillies Zenyatta has been beating her whole career ? On top of this RA also won the Preakness and Haskell which you fail to mention.
I don’t actually think RA is the best thing since sliced bred. She’s a good horse, and were she to face Zenyatta i’d hope the best horse would win.
I just find it weird how nobody ever points out the advantage of Zenyatta not running outside her own state. It’s also weird how anyone can say she was better than STS, or is a 140+ horse, whilst criticising RA, who is a 3 y/o filly who took on the colts, something Zenyatta didn’t do until she was almost 6.
I also think you have repeatedly ignore the fact that RA’s 3 y/o campaign was alot tougher than what Zenyattas was. You have been comparing a 5y/o to a 3y/o.
1I don’t think European horses had an advantage on pro ride either. The ground is as hot as coals, and Zenyattas is used to that, they ain’t…so how could the europeans have held an advantage i’ll never know ?
I’m doing the same comparison that half the world of horse racing are doing Goldi.
I also mentioned RA’s Preakness and Haskell runs in a previous post.
No doubt about it, RA is a fantastic horse and one you normally know where you stand with. I was on quite heavily in the Haskell and never had to sweat whereas with Zenyatta in the Ladies Classic (the first time I saw her run) I did sweat as I didn’t know what she was going to do in such a big race.
That said, Zen has still never been into top gear. She’s always had something left.
Despite my big biased opinion towards Zenyatta at the end of the day I want to see the two race against each other to create one of the races that’ll stay in my memory for a long long time to come.
"Zenyatta mondata" wasn"t a patch on "Outlandos D"Amour"!I cant i cant i cant stand losing!
Good debate and fun for horse racing fans. As previous posts have pointed out, with RVW and Twice Over, form lines using beaten lengths can easily be manipulated. Very few horses are as consistent as Zenyatta. The RVW that tested STS was a much better horse than the worn out sore hooved horse that spit out the bit after 6f in the BCC. Likewise the Twice Over that ran close to Zenyatta was a much improved, much better horse than the one that ran up the track earlier in the season vs. STS. Mine That Bird, that almost caught RA in the Preakness, is a small horse that peaked physically early in his 3yo season for the triple crown series and in the BCC was a shadow of what he had been. Summer Bird is probably the best form line between RA and Z, but the only race SB ran against RA was the Haskell. The Haskell was run on a sloppy track and the sprinter Munnings set a very fast pace. SB ran much closer to the pace than he normally does, probably because SB’s jockey had instructions to stay close to RA and try to beat her in the stretch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKiFHrGVWNQ
Or listen to the comments by this knowledgeable fan in his trackside video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiMxoMNF … re=related
To draw a proper form line you have to go much deeper than simply comparing beaten lengths. Add in that SB in the BCC was a much more mature 3yo and had won important G1 races since the Haskell, or travelling to California might have taken something out of him and he was running on the pro-ride for the first time.
I believe that the decision to run Zenyatta in the BC Classic had a lot more to do with Zenyatta than anyone else who was running. See the Z workout video in my previous post. I believe that 10/31 workout and how Z acted afterwards was the final deciding factor that put Zenyatta in the Classic instead of the Ladies Classic.
Rachel Alexandra is a brilliant filly that can carry her speed over a distance but I also believe that at 9f or more Zenyatta will beat her on any surface. Z has run some fast 8.5f times and I would rate that distance a toss-up, anything less RA wins. As RA matures and Z ages that could change. The duel between RA and Z is really something to look forward to in 2010 and I hope they meet more than once. OTOH, RA and Z each taking different paths to the BCC and both of them continuing their unbeaten streaks into a climactic BCC showdown would also be a battle for the ages.
Too bad the gutless money-grubber Chris Tsui robbed racing fans of a similar rivalry between STS and Z. On turf I would give the edge to STS and on dirt to Z, at least until or if Z proves herself on turf.
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Fist said, " …his fans will say he would have beaten Zenyatta but the fact remains they ran the filly when they didn’t have to while Oxx and co, despite a $3 million carrot said no thanks."
You conveniently overlook the fact that Zenyatta’s owners were reluctant to even run their so called "wonder filly" in the Breeders’ Cup – until it became quite clear that Sea The Stars would not be showing up; having been duly retired.
Sea The Stars’s Arc performance was a fantastic performance. Nothing will change my mind on that. He had gears to burn and was as tough and resilient ( and classy ) as they come.
I fear Zenyatta’s owners are making a big mistake by racing her again. Her unbeaten record will surely go. Mark my words.
Absolutely not true "H" when did they say the wouldn’t run her? I hammered into her weeks before because what they actually said was" If she is at the top of her form come the Breeders she will run" She was and she did and she won it simple as.
As far as Sea the Stars is concerned I don’t accept his best run was in the Eclipse.That’s Timeform talk because they have to cover their backsides. His Arc win was his best by a mile….. The Eclipse trip was 2f too far for Rip Van Winkle (Confirmed twice by Murtagh) and 2f too short for Conduit.
I studied STS’s Arc win inside out and absolutely everything points to one thing: Zarkava was the better horse. The ground the timer from when they went from home the fact she did it hands and heels and he did not.
We get many people saying Sea the Star would have beat her but not one person comes up with anything concrete………just star struck opinions.
If anyone wants to disagree that’s their privilege but ffs come up with an argument with some foundation to it and not just he had a shiny coat.
136 may be his correct rating but if it is then Zarkava should be at least 138 when comparing the Arc wins.
I was Zarkava biggest fan I won a fortune when she won the Arc but this Zenyatta has everything she had but I shudder to think what else she has in that tank of hers.
I don’t give a rats ass what people say. I’ve wathed racing for 40 plus years and I know when a horse is all out….. Sea the Stars was flat out in the Arc….sure he would have run on and nothing would have passed him in that field……. but Zenyatta in full flight? As I said we have/had nothing in last years 1m2f-1m4f crop that even came close to being as good as her.
- Total Posts 17716
Fist, Sea the Stars was flat to the boards in the Arc?? He was pricking his ears passing the winning post, NOT the actions of a horse whos flat-out. Zenyatta was only confirmed when her connections KNEW that STS and RA would not be there. Granted, she could only beat what was in front of her, but for you to think that she’ll go on to be a 140+ horse is ludicrous. IF her connections have the bravery to take on RA on Dirt, and NOT Firt, they will not see which way RA goes. Do u really think that Zen could give RA a 15 length start, like she did in the BC, and catch her? Not a prayer. This year, with Zen coming back, will only confirm that Zenyatta is a damn good mare, but that RA is the best mare EVER. If either of them goes on to earn such a lofty mark, it will be Rachel.
Harchibald was pricking his ears when he was beaten in the Champion Hurdle mate.
Let me tell you FACTS about Sea the Stars
Oxx asked Mick Kinane to win the Eclipse as far as he could but Mick wasn’t up for it BUT and said he would never win by more than 1 1/2 lenths………when they ran him in the Arc they knew he would never see a race course again so Mick Kinane with nothing to lose gave it everything he had. Can’t remember if it was 5 or 7 times he hit the horse in the last 300 yds and can’t be bothered watching the race again…….You saw the horse at his best that day and he gave his all.
Look back at some of the previous winners…Like the great Sea Bird II winning in a common canter, Zarkava winning hands and heels, Mill Reef treating everything with total contempt, Dancing Brave going past them like they were trees and tell me Sea the Star was exceptional.
Easy pleased if you ask me.
I think she’s much better than Rachel, you don’t, hopefully time will tell. Just don’t come back shouting Rachel was voted horse of the year..79% of UK punters think Zenyatta will win as she is the better horse in their opinion but in the USA that’s got very little to do with anything. If money talks then Rachel has that one tied up already……Zenyatta is on the wrong coast they reckon
JH – i thought Zenyatta doesn’t run on dirt ?
Zenyatta won the Apple Blossom G1 on dirt in 2008, her largest winning margin. Off that race, Z’s trainer says she runs better on dirt. Z’s connections said she would travel more this year which probably means dirt races back East in the US and the 2010 BCC is on dirt at Churchill Downs. Z’s people have set the BCC as a long term goal in 2010.
I would really like to see Zenyatta risk her winning streak by running in a G1 Turf race at 12f. She has the breeding for turf and if she won, as I expect she would, that would prove her on all three surfaces. At least I would very much like Zenyatta to try 1 1/2 miles on any surface. The way she finished the 1 1/4 mile BCC sure looks to me like she would be even better at 12f.
JH – i thought Zenyatta doesn’t run on dirt ?
Oh Goldi…You were putting up a decent bit of banter until you didnt check your facts on what she’s run on
That’s interesting. I thought it was a case of her being unlikely to travel a long distance to race. The thing is JH, i have a feeling that it still won’t happen, or if it does the hype won’t be as big as possibly one or both might be beaten before the BC. There’s so many possibilities and potential road blocks. Do you think it will happen ?
JH – i thought Zenyatta doesn’t run on dirt ?
Oh Goldi…You were putting up a decent bit of banter until you didnt check your facts on what she’s run on
Bloody Chancer, that Goldi,the Ante-Post Bandit!
That’s interesting. I thought it was a case of her being unlikely to travel a long distance to race. The thing is JH, i have a feeling that it still won’t happen, or if it does the hype won’t be as big as possibly one or both might be beaten before the BC. There’s so many possibilities and potential road blocks. Do you think it will happen ?
Highly likely that they could meet in the Apple Blossom, Goldi.
Rachel ran at the Oaklawn meet last year and was untroubled. Zenyatta beat Ginger Punch quite easily when she ran there.
It would be one hell of a race. But sadly in the middle of nowhere where we would struggle to see it!
My fingers, however, are not.
); I would definitely back Rachel Alexandra to beat Zenyatta. Her performances have impressed me even more than Zenyatta’s. I think RA has a wonderful style of running, with speed to burn, and would gallop the finish out of Zenyatta.
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