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Fist said, " …his fans will say he would have beaten Zenyatta but the fact remains they ran the filly when they didn’t have to while Oxx and co, despite a $3 million carrot said no thanks."
You conveniently overlook the fact that Zenyatta’s owners were reluctant to even run their so called "wonder filly" in the Breeders’ Cup – until it became quite clear that Sea The Stars would not be showing up; having been duly retired.
Sea The Stars’s Arc performance was a fantastic performance. Nothing will change my mind on that. He had gears to burn and was as tough and resilient ( and classy ) as they come.
I fear Zenyatta’s owners are making a big mistake by racing her again. Her unbeaten record will surely go. Mark my words.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
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Zenyatta was only confirmed for the Breeders’ Cup after the defection of Rachel Alexandra and the retirement of Sea The Stars, Fist, so quite what you’re basing your wild claims on I’m not quite sure.
Keeping up with your rapidly changing opinions of Sea The Stars, Rip Van Winkle, Mastercraftsman and, in particular, Conduit, has quite frankly proved beyond me, but there isn’t a single piece of form in Zenyatta’s fourteen race history which qualifies her for a rating of 140.
Aside from the fact that she doesn’t treat Grade One horses like ‘selling platers’, her come-from-behind style is just that – a style. Some horses go from the front and grind. Some horses sit in midfield and quicken. Some horses are held up, quicken and sustain their effort. Some horses sit anywhere, quicken off any pace and then ease themselves across the line. Why is Zenyatta’s style any more meritorious than that of other horses?
Am I right in thinking that the Breeders’ Cup was Zenyatta’s first foray in to mixed company? Presumably then that is the race in which she will have achieved her highest rating? Does a length defeat of Gio Ponti, and a two-and-a-quarter length defeat of Twice Over, constitute a rating of 140?
Zenyatta hasn’t achieved anything more than Sea The Stars. Zenyatta hasn’t achieved anything more than Zarkava. Zenyatta hasn’t run to a mark of, or in excess of, 140. Zenyatta hasn’t even done enough to confirm herself the best filly in the United States.
Until Zenyatta faces Rachel Alexandra – who, having won a Preakness Stakes and annihilated a Belmont Winner (her form with Summer Bird puts her in a different league to Zenyatta in my opinion) has achieved far more – then she has no claim to being anything other than top class, and even then we’ll never know how she’d have fared against the strong-travelling, ice-cool Sea The Stars (you can shout all you want, Fist, but there’s no evidence that she’d have breezed by him, in much the same way there’s no evidence to suggest he’d have quickened again if indeed she did get to him).
Fist wrote;
"All you can do with Zenyatta is look and judge for yourself and up to now she has proved to be unbeatable. I’ve never seen anything like her and still can’t take in how she can consistently give horses 15 lengths of a start and treat them like selling platers."
I’m afraid it’s even worse than that. Zenyatta didn’t treat the other horses like selling platers, she treated them like Grade 1/Group 1 winners. Mere, weak, not really in her league G1 horses.
From various stories I have read it seems like Jerry Moss is leaving it up to John Shirreffs to plan Zenyatta’s 2010 Campaign, once Shirreffs decides she is ready to return to racing. Zenyatta breezed today 5f in 1:01 2/5. Once you see her working 6f in close to the 1:12 2/5 time of her last serious work before the BCC on 10/31/09 and galloping out a mile or more, then you will know she is ready to start racing again.
I’m amazed to hear stud fees aren’t that good in the USA…are they lower than Europe or are we talking about in comparison to available prize money?
It’s not that stud fees are small, it’s that few people want to pay them! The days of Storm Cat’s $500,000 and A.P. Indy’s $300,000 are over, and most farms realize that.
I fear Zenyatta’s owners are making a big mistake by racing her again. Her unbeaten record will surely go. Mark my words.
I don’t think it’s the unbeaten record they’re after, it’s the chance to gain respect from the eastern contingent and from Rachel Alexandra fans, to break the 16-consecutive-wins record of Miss Woodford/Citation/Cigar, to become the highest earning filly or mare in history, to get the American public interested in racing outside of the Kentucky Derby.
Why does it always have to be American tracks. I’d set up a match between STS and Zenyatta at Kempton
To be quite honest, i’m not ready for more boring ‘will they or won’t they meet’ with regards to RA and Z. If the Americans like hiding from each other, then let them get on with it. Hopefully they have one or two decent 3 y/o to compete against either of them.
You call me Blowhard!
a 6 year old could work out why it’s got to be on American track it’s called money stupid!If your bored go post on the Noddy and Big Ears forum….doors right behind you
I know it’s all about money, blow-hard. That doesn’t find out who the better horse is though if one has to travel 8000 miles against a horse that doesn’t even run outside her own state.
What would happen hypothetically if they ran at Kempton ? Would Zenyatta be a 140+(god knows how much plus means) ?
The whole situation is hypothetical, because STS is at stud. So when talking about a race between them, it could be on Mars for all it matters.
Fist, Sea the Stars was flat to the boards in the Arc?? He was pricking his ears passing the winning post, NOT the actions of a horse whos flat-out. Zenyatta was only confirmed when her connections KNEW that STS and RA would not be there. Granted, she could only beat what was in front of her, but for you to think that she’ll go on to be a 140+ horse is ludicrous. IF her connections have the bravery to take on RA on Dirt, and NOT Firt, they will not see which way RA goes. Do u really think that Zen could give RA a 15 length start, like she did in the BC, and catch her? Not a prayer. This year, with Zen coming back, will only confirm that Zenyatta is a damn good mare, but that RA is the best mare EVER. If either of them goes on to earn such a lofty mark, it will be Rachel.
Excellant post Media Gecko.
If you think she isn’t what form line are you basing that on?
How can you talk form line with a filly who no one has come even close to getting to the bottom off?
Sea the Stars was flat to the boards in the Arc so I can work out he wasn’t anywhere near the best I have seen IMO of course. It’s near on impossible for me to work out how good Zenyatta is. How much weight you would have to put on Zenyatta’s back to stop her beating our nearest line which was Twice Over as Rip Van Winkle flopped? 7lbs? 14 lbs? I don’t know but it would be a bloody lot.
You can say she wasn’t beating much but we can’t say Sea the Stars was beaten wonder horses can we? Rip Van Winkle, Mastercraftsman and Fame and Glory all flopped at the end of the day…..Not 1, not 2 but all 3. Conduit got his backside felt in Japan….so our form isn’t exactly anything to write home about
All you can do with Zenyatta is look and judge for yourself and up to now she has proved to be unbeatable. I’ve never seen anything like her and still can’t take in how she can consistently give horses 15 lengths of a start and treat them like selling platers.
We have nothing that compares to her and I mean nothing.
Timeform I respect. On a daily racing for many people they are a must but when it comes to top rated horses they are a mess. They write something down so it must be true.
When Sea the Stars won the Arc every man and his uncle said it was a fantastic performance. I even heard one pundit say after the race he should be rated as one of the best of all time…….definitely a 140 plus horse was the cry
BUT! his proximity to Zarkava’s form was there for all to see so they hit him with a 132.Maybe some disagree with the lowly 136 Sea the Stars ended up with but there is enough doubt there to say he was no wonder horse……..very very very good but not the unbeatable superstar some people reckon he was.
Unfortunately we will never know how good he really was but no one will ever convince me anything he beat was in the same class as Zenyatta……. his fans will say he would have beaten Zenyatta but the fact remains they ran the filly when they didn’t have to while Oxx and co, despite a $3 million carrot said no thanks.
I’ve already got stuck into her for next season’s Breeders with confidence and had a nice sidebet she’ll end up on at least a par with Sea the Stars on Timeform ratings.
No sense talking the talk if you are not prepared to walk the walk.
You say how can I talk formline? It is you that gave Zenyatta a rating Fist. Was surprised at your 140+ and wondered how you came to that opinion.
You say Sea The Stars connections ducked the issue. They ran in six of the very best races during a hectic season. Zenyatta ran in only one of the "very best" races; it could be argued her connections ducked the issue. You say the form was not franked. Rip Van Winkle went on to beat the Best older male and best 3 year old filly milers easily at Goodwood. Conduit, 3rd in the Eclipse, went on to win the King George and Breeders Cup. And looking further back in the Eclipse field, many also rans went on to run well in top company. Jukebox Jury and Twice Over won Group 1’s.
Fame And Glory had won the Irish Derby by a wide margin, having been second in our Derby. Mastercraftsman had come off wins in the Irish 2000 and St James’s Palace when he got beat by Sea The Stars twice.So it does not matter if those Sea The Stars beat totally lost their form later on, after busy campaigns. The form had already been franked.
Sea The Stars Arc performance was rightly rated the same or similar to Zarkava (allowing for sex allowance), but it was NOT his best performance.
There is NO formline to suggest Zenyatta is a 140+ horse.
What had Gio Ponti done before his Classic performance? Is Twice Over a real top class racehorse? He won a fair Champion Stakes, though Sariska probably ran below form. Can see he may have improved a pound or two, but given his previously exposed form, nothing significant. The form of this years Classic is not outstanding.So all you are basing 140+ on is how easily she won. Many horses win easily, does not mean they have stones in hand. Just because a horse wins a lot of (comparitively) weak group 1’s; does NOT make her form any better than one who’s won fewer races.
Value Is EverythingZenyatta only got confirmed for the Classic when RA and STS deflected? Rubbish
If you are in touch with your US racing you would have known where she was going months before even though it hadn’t been made public. I’m also right in thinking Z got confirmed before Oxx deflected STS.
Whilst Fist’s comments are a little blinkered (like mine in places on this horse) I admit there is no form line making her a 140 horse. However, there is also no form line confirming what most of you are saying – that Zenyatta isnt as good as we think she is/could be.
She has NEVER had to be pushed along like Rachel had in numerous races.
People say that Rachel wouldnt be caught by Zenyatta and that she made a mockery of Summer Bird. Who saw the Haskell? Who saw the state of the Monmouth dirt track that day? It was sloppy and on any other day the meeting wouldve been called off!
In the Preakness, Mine That Bird was closing fast towards Rachel. She was bottoming out just like she did in the Woodward. Zenyatta is a far superior closer to Mine That Bird and a more consistent one at that.
We state that Rachel will go on to earn a 140 mark and, to be honest, I’d love for either of these to earn such a mark. However, if Rachel comes back she WILL be caught and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was done on one of the New York tracks either!
Anyone got a reasonable reason that Zenyatta won’t close on Rachel or that Rachel will blitz away and won’t be caught? Didnt think so.
I have, RA is a better horse, simple as that!!!
And Zenyatta was never pushed along??? Im rolling in the aisles here mate! In the BC Classic, she was pushed along almost as soon as she left the gate, and believe me, she was all-out when she won. And again, you are wrong about Zenyatta being confirmed before STS was retired. They didnt confirm her until 2 days before the race, and thats a fact. Did her connections tell u something that we didnt know?? Didnt think so.
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Presumably you have a better explanation than ‘because she’s a better closer than Mine That Bird’ as to why Zenyatta will hunt down Rachel Alexandra?
And, for clarification:
24/06/2009
Connections confirm that Rachel Alexandra won’t be going to the Breeders’ Cup.
04/09/2009
Zenyatta unconfirmed for the Breeders’ Cup Classic, connections failing to acknowledge Sea The Stars in any interview yet mentioning Summer Bird and Gio Ponti.
12/10/2009
Dottie Ingordo-Shireffs says that ‘both races are very much open to discussion. It will depend on who’s coming, the size of the field’. John Shireffs adds ‘there’s no reason she couldn’t race against the males, but there’s absolutely no reason to rush in to that decision now.’
13/10/2009
Sea The Stars retired.
28/10/2009
Zenyatta confirmed for the Breeder’s Cup Classic.Halfway – You’re saying RA was flat out, well no wonder she was flat out considering she was 3 last season and taking on the colts. Z didn’t take them on until she was 5. She might just get beat next season if she goes against them again, and there’s every chance Z would of also if she ran against them when she was 4.
Media, as usual your posts are based on FACTS, and thus, are excellent and well appreciated!!! I can understand people being fans of Zen, but they should really get their facts straight.
Whatever your opinions may be of Zenyatta, she is without question the most unique individual I’ve ever seen on a racetrack.
She is pure gold for the sport and now that Sea The Stars has left the picture, she is arguably the most recognized racehorse on the planet.
Zenyatta’s unparalleled talent has seen her go unbeaten in fourteen starts over a duration of twenty-four months. That level of consistency is quite staggering, to say the least, but her relationship with the racing public sets her apart from just about any other horse on the planet.
Her feminine strut, seductive dance and gorgous looks perfectly compliment her ability. Quite literally, to this point in her career, she has been perfect.
Perfect looks, perfect record, perfect temperament, perfect style.
Of course, favourite styles are a matter of opinion, but her ‘last-to-first, swoop late’ style is another factor that makes her so popular. There’s nothing like the sight of one horse going past another – this is horse racing, after all.
Arazi, Dancing Brave, Zarkava – beautiful to watch, weren’t they?
As for comparisons between Zenyatta, Sea The Stars and Zarkava, I will say this. Zarkava graced the track for a little over twelve months. Sea The Stars for fifteen. Should all go well during the embryonic stages of the season, Zenyatta would have been competing for thirty-six months come the Breeders’ Cup.
Talking about comparisons, now we come that old chestnut, Zenyatta vs Rachel. All this nonsense about connections of ‘Big Z’ targeting the BC Classic after the defections of Rachel and Sea The Stars is pure conjecture.
The fact is that Zenyatta turned up, Rachel and Sea The Stars didn’t. End of story.
I can understand why Zenyatta (west coast) and Rachel (east coast) do not meet during the season. Each horse has their own respective itinerary, but the Breeders’ Cup is the big dance and everyone wants to attend the big dance.
Rachel’s connections made up some excuse about the surface and decided not to go. Fine by me, but don’t knock Zenyatta’s sensational triumph due their inflexibility.
The fact is this (and yes it is fact) Jerry Moss wil have to find Jess Jackson and play in Rachel’s backyard if these two great horses ever meet.
Zenyatta has won every race with her ears pricked, playing with the bit after crossing the line and still doing her little dance. It’s quite scary to think what she could do if they really got to the bottom of her. She hit the wire at an incredible 40 mph, covering the last quarter in 22.49 when landing the Clement L Hirsch, only for Mike Smith to say "When we hit the wire she hit another gear – then when we crossed and I stood up she hit another gear!"
Of course, her style means she will never win a race by a huge margin, but it just seems that any horse in her way has a huge ‘X’ on their backside and if you don’t get outta the way, Big Z’s gonna flatten you!
She’s more attractive than Rachel, with a better body and personality. Tell me, if you had a chance to accompany one to the big dance, who would you choose?
*please, no bestiality jokes.
She hit the wire at an incredible 40 mph, covering the last quarter in 22.49 when landing the Clement L Hirsch, only for Mike Smith to say "When we hit the wire she hit another gear – then when we crossed and I stood up she hit another gear!"
And good ol’ Dancing Brave ran his last quarter in his Derby in 21.5 on a course that didn’t suit him
Whatever your opinions may be of Zenyatta, she is without question the most unique individual I’ve ever seen on a racetrack.
She is pure gold for the sport and now that Sea The Stars has left the picture, she is arguably the most recognized racehorse on the planet.
Zenyatta’s unparalleled talent has seen her go unbeaten in fourteen starts over a duration of twenty-four months. That level of consistency is quite staggering, to say the least, but her relationship with the racing public sets her apart from just about any other horse on the planet.
Her feminine strut, seductive dance and gorgous looks perfectly compliment her ability. Quite literally, to this point in her career, she has been perfect.
Perfect looks, perfect record, perfect temperament, perfect style.
Of course, favourite styles are a matter of opinion, but her ‘last-to-first, swoop late’ style is another factor that makes her so popular. There’s nothing like the sight of one horse going past another – this is horse racing, after all.
Arazi, Dancing Brave, Zarkava – beautiful to watch, weren’t they?
As for comparisons between Zenyatta, Sea The Stars and Zarkava, I will say this. Zarkava graced the track for a little over twelve months. Sea The Stars for fifteen. Should all go well during the embryonic stages of the season, Zenyatta would have been competing for thirty-six months come the Breeders’ Cup.
Talking about comparisons, now we come that old chestnut, Zenyatta vs Rachel. All this nonsense about connections of ‘Big Z’ targeting the BC Classic after the defections of Rachel and Sea The Stars is pure conjecture.
The fact is that Zenyatta turned up, Rachel and Sea The Stars didn’t. End of story.
I can understand why Zenyatta (west coast) and Rachel (east coast) do not meet during the season. Each horse has their own respective itinerary, but the Breeders’ Cup is the big dance and everyone wants to attend the big dance.
Rachel’s connections made up some excuse about the surface and decided not to go. Fine by me, but don’t knock Zenyatta’s sensational triumph due their inflexibility.
The fact is this (and yes it is fact) Jerry Moss wil have to find Jess Jackson and play in Rachel’s backyard if these two great horses ever meet.
Zenyatta has won every race with her ears pricked, playing with the bit after crossing the line and still doing her little dance. It’s quite scary to think what she could do if they really got to the bottom of her. She hit the wire at an incredible 40 mph, covering the last quarter in 22.49 when landing the Clement L Hirsch, only for Mike Smith to say "When we hit the wire she hit another gear – then when we crossed and I stood up she hit another gear!"
Of course, her style means she will never win a race by a huge margin, but it just seems that any horse in her way has a huge ‘X’ on their backside and if you don’t get outta the way, Big Z’s gonna flatten you!
She’s more attractive than Rachel, with a better body and personality. Tell me, if you had a chance to accompany one to the big dance, who would you choose?
*please, no bestiality jokes.
THIS is a good post based on facts and solid points.
Zenyatta was on the go for much longer than all of the top horses put together.
Aido, I appreciate your comments and the same to MG and the rest of you. However, we will not properly know who is better until Rachel faces Zenyatta.
Aido, your comment that Rachel is better that Zenyatta may very well be proved true. I’m a fan of both of the horses but until they race against each other your comment is pure speculation.
Until they face each other not one person on this forum can categorically state who the better horse is.
As for Zenyatta being flat to the boards. You might be rolling in the aisles but i’ve just wet myself. Watch this video my friend. If you can tell me where she’s flat out then I’ll accept that. I doubt you’ll find it though
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud_XPH6Eix4
Count how many times Mike Smith hits her too. Thats the fewest of the whole field.
Then watch this….this is a horse flat out…
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