- This topic has 314 replies, 34 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Zenyatta deserved the award for capturing the imagination of horse racing fans all over the world, and possibly creating a few more in the process. But she doesn’t deserve the award for what she achieved on the track in that period. There’s always room for a certain degree of sentiment, I suppose….
A bit like our SPOTY (sports personality of the year) – the result can quite farcical and yet sit well
Prior to
Zenyattas
defeat by
Blame
,she was a very tricky horse to get a handle on just how good she was, as she could go by anything put in front of her with the minimum of fuss.
She may have won horse of the year 2010 but for me it was the way she left the triple Group 1 winnerTwice Over
for dead in the previous years Classic that put some perspective on just how good she was! Had she caught Blame and won by the shortest of heads nobody would be questioning her award and in my mind she showed without doubt that she was at least a 2 length moral victor on the night, had Mike Smith not had a Cuckoo clock in his head!
- Total Posts 17716
It is impossible to judge the effort of anything from the 2009 Breeders Classic on the form of Twice Over. One and only start on pro-ride and his subsequent effort on a different artificial track was equally inconclusive at Meydan.
Any assertions based on the available evidence are unprovable guesses at best. Twice Over was a ONE time Gr1 winner ( 1 from 6 tries ) leading into the 2009 BCC. He’d been defeated out of sight by a genuine champion at Sandown that season and streeted by a top 3yo in his favourite race the year before. The rest is 20/20 hindsight. Ifs, buts and maybes do not make factual certainties.
It is impossible to judge the effort of anything from the 2009 Breeders Classic on the form of Twice Over. One and only start on pro-ride and his subsequent effort on a different artificial track was equally inconclusive at Meydan.
Any assertions based on the available evidence are unprovable guesses at best. Twice Over was a ONE time Gr1 winner ( 1 from 6 tries ) leading into the 2009 BCC. He’d been defeated out of sight by a genuine champion at Sandown that season and streeted by a top 3yo in his favourite race the year before. The rest is 20/20 hindsight. Ifs, buts and maybes do not make factual certainties.
There was sufficent evidence to suggest that turf form translated well to the pro-ride surface.
Henrythenavigator and Raven’s Pass thrilled us all with their duals in the St James’ Palace Stakes, Sussex Stakes and QEII, en route to Santa Anita.
The John Gosden-trained colt always threatened to reverse the form at some stage and, over the extra two furlongs, did just that.
Turf horses acted, as expected, on the pro-ride surface and there was further evidence to support this the following year.
If judging anything from the 2009 Breeders’ Cup Classic on the form of Twice Over is impossible, judging the pre-Doncaster Conditions event Twice Over to the one we witnessed post-2009 Champion Stakes is naive.
Henry Cecil received much deserved adulation for his well devised plan to instil some confidence into Twice Over, taking in a Goodwwod Listed event after his Doncaster success.
The ‘real’ Twice Over – once leading contender for The Derby – was (re)born when he landed the 2009 Champion Stakes. Next stop Santa Anita.
Fellow ten furlong turf specialist, Gio Ponti, followed Zenyatta home – another indication of just how well turf horses translated their ability to the pro-ride surface.
Gio Ponti, an Arlington Million hero, would go on to win his second Man O’War. Twice Over would go on to win an Eclipse and his second Champion Stakes.
Although they ran to within half a length of that form in Dubai on Tapeta, that race is arguably best ignored because neither had the race run to suit.
It’s quite interesting that Gio Ponti ran Goldikova to 1 3/4L in the BC Mile over an inadequate trip, yet finished only marginally closer to Zenyatta over his preferred distance.
In my opinion, there wasn’t the great gulf between the pair that many would like to believe.
It is impossible to judge the effort of anything from the 2009 Breeders Classic on the form of Twice Over.
Twice Over
is the perfect link to assessing the great
Zenyatta
as Henry said at the time,it was Twice Overs greatest performance on a race track and he rated him a proper Group 1 horse! He continued to progress again this year as did the wonder mare so for the filly to go past him in the Classic like she did just shows her brilliance,it doesn"t surprise me that you find it impossible to judge her brilliance against Twice Overs though!
- Total Posts 17716
ROFL. The sample sizes used to support weak arguments are pathetically small to say the least. Nothing to discuss regarding such low grade science.
claim: Zenyatta beat Gio Ponti a length.
counter: Goldikova beat him a length and three quarters.
claim: Gio Ponti is a lesser horse at a mile.
counter: Gio Ponti is 4-1-0 from six tries at a mile including 1/1 on pro-ride. But at his "best trip" of 10f he’s 3-3-0 from eigth tries including a second and a fourth from two all weather attempts. Summer Bird was beaten 3 lengths by Zenyatta and six lengths by Rachel Alexandra. So what?claim: Henry Cecil said …..
counter: Trainers post race gushings are too often tied to their self interest in stallion nominations to be used as any sort of argument booster.claim: Twice Over is a proper Gr1 horse.
counter: Proper Group One horses like New Approach and Sea The Stars disagree with you.claim: Henrythenavigator and Raven’s Pass thrilled us all with their duals in the St James’ Palace Stakes, Sussex Stakes and QEII, en route to Santa Anita. The John Gosden-trained colt always threatened to reverse the form at some stage and, over the extra two furlongs, did just that.
counter: What reversal? He already did it at Ascot over a mile no extra furlongs required. Let’s not try to use the 2008 Classic as any guide to the 2009 event. Completely different races with the only real rivals being a DIRT champion at or beyond his best and an over the top Duke Of Marmalade.claim: The ‘real’ Twice Over – once leading contender for The Derby
counter claim: Oh dear do we really need to trip into fantasy land?I can go on all day if you want to argue the so called facts. I’ll leave you both to the emotional stuff though or we can agree to disagree like adults.
- Total Posts 17716
I’ll just ignore the Twice Over/Rip Van Winkle formline and how it transferred to the new surface. It obviously worked for you both.
claim: Henry Cecil said …..
counter: Trainers post race gushings are too often tied to their self interest in stallion nominations to be used as any sort of argument booster.Not Henry Cecil and not Henry Cecil talking about the 4yo
Twice Over
who actually stayed in training as a 5yo so again your Counter claim falls flat on its face!
I can go on all day if you want to argue the so called facts./quote]
Yeh of course you can and you could change your mind before the end of the day,bit like
Simon de Montfort
today! Wasn"t he an advisor to a King? Signs of weakness are those who cant commit to an opinion!
I’ll just ignore the Twice Over/Rip Van Winkle formline and how it transferred to the new surface. It obviously worked for you both.
Yep, best ignored.
Rip Van Winkle’s chances were blighted by a foot problem in the build-up to the race. He had endured a hard campaign and was the only runner in the field who didn’t use lasix, if memory serves me well.
- Total Posts 17716
Yeh of course you can and you could change your mind before the end of the day,bit like Simon de Montfort today! Wasn"t he an advisor to a King? Signs of weakness are those who cant commit to an opinion
What opinion? A totally nonsense load of off topic tosh. If that’s the level of your debating prowess we have nothing to discuss.
Rip Van Winkle’s "problems" were well documented all year. Only thing is he won plenty of times with those "problems". Of course, to suit you argument, the problems were worse at Santa Anita and you both know better than O’Brien or Coolmore about the horses welfare.
- Total Posts 17716
The problem here TAPK is that you really seem to believe your thoughts, feelings and emotions rate significantly higher than any true form reference. You continually answer factual references with self serving emotional sprays and personal attacks. That is not debating. It is something else though. Best of luck with your outlook on life.
thiswikian,You write a lot of bull and dismiss others for doing the same.Not very objective of you but you don’t seem aware of it.Sad to read such subjective nonsense.Forgive me if i sound harsh but honesty is important in your case.I write this with the expectation that you will take it aboard and learn from it.
Sorry Chiswickian but if you want to talk only about "true form references" and "cold hard facts" you don’t really know much about horses.
Unfortunately they are not machines and so going on the formbook alone can lead us all down blind alleys. You said that New Approach and Sea The Stars would disagree that Twice Over is a proper Group 1 horse. By the same argument Ravens Pass, Fame and Glory, Vision D’Etat and Sariska would have to disagree with New Approach and Sea The Stars surely leading to a mass horse brawl.
You don’t seem to want to accept that Twice Over might not have run to his best in that Eclipse and that he may have improved since HC won him a couple of easy races. Similarly, and back to the original point, you seem to argue that as Zenyatta has beaten some average horses by only small margins she can’t be rated very highly, ignoring the fact that she is ridden exactly that way.
Whilst I would never ignore the formbook entirely, there are times when even good horses like Twice Over, Rip Van Winkle and Fame and Glory don’t run to their marks for whatever reason. Sometimes we have to use our eyes. For me Zenyatta fully deserves her accolade. I will never forget that final race.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
The problem here TAPK is that you really seem to believe your thoughts, feelings and emotions rate significantly higher than any true form reference. You continually answer factual references with self serving emotional sprays and personal attacks. That is not debating. It is something else though. Best of luck with your outlook on life.
Your Semantics have been noted and i being a reformed character reserve the right to discuss this topic further!
Is that better Corm?- Total Posts 17716
I’ll go out on a limb here are accept the howls of indignation invariably coming my way.
ROFLMAO. Thank you Andy, TAPK and Jonibake. You have all fulfilled my expectations. Any personal opinion is subjective including your own. A wise man once said "Never argue a horses merits with the emotionally charged fan – you’ll only succeed in finding out how vitriolic they can be".
I offered the olive branch many posts ago …… "let’s agree to disagree". Some folks never want to accept that simple fact. I guess that’s why we live in such a violent, disruptive world. Enjoy your racing gentlemen.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.