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Give ovver DJ
the QEII older horses were average at best, like the 3yo’s, at least the Arc had some proven above average horses like Hurricane Run, Shirocco, Pride and even Zorro’s Deep impact the magnificent
(Edited by empty wallet at 4:34 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)
EW
I can’t have it that beating Enforcer by less than 3 lengths marks either Shirocco or Hurricane Run down as ‘above average’ by your definition. What pieces of form mark them down as better than the likes of Araafa and Court Masterpiece.
George Washington was the best of a bad bunch in Europe in 2006.
DJ
Put our own opinions aside and lets use the IFHA rankings
I see Pride, Deepp Impact, Shirocco, Hurricane run at the top end , i don’t see QEII runners Court Masterpiece, Libretist, Araafa etc at the top end
Quote: from empty wallet on 3:52 pm on Jan. 16, 2007[br]DJ
The Guineas and QEII were not decent races, Rail Links Arc (as usually i) was
Rail Link top 3 yo imhaho
(Edited by empty wallet at 3:52 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)<br>
Now i thought this years Arc was very weak indeed, compared to other recent runnings. You had top class horses that were either regressing of had just gone over the top in behind, and not much else.
Deep Impact was not given the best ride by Take that day and i don’t think he’s as good as many people suggest.
George was class, everything about him. The guineas i thought was an okay race, not a bad one by any means. The time suggested it was a good race and the way he quckened off what wasn’t a brilliant early gallop IMO was brilliant.
Look, i’ve argued toss about GW before and he was a the top 3yo in Europe, but class he was not
(Edited by empty wallet at 4:49 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)
Quote: from empty wallet on 4:45 pm on Jan. 16, 2007[br]DJ
Put our own opinions aside and lets use the IFHA rankings
Not much point in arguing the toss if I have to use someone elses opinion EW.
In relpy to whether this years derby was a good one or not, i have to agree it wasn’t the best derby by any means, but i echo the quote of it can’t be as bad as Kris Kin’s derby…….. that was awful, however he won a Derby, i will never know.
If Hala Bek had have ran again and won a decent race (which im sure he would have done, maybe even the Irish Derby) this race would be read completely differently.
I think the only reason the race is being put down is the fact that Dragon Dancer finished so close……….. i think everyone should forget about him being there, he is a horse that for some reason ran the race of his life that day and has since shown his proper level of ability IMO.
I think it was a better Derby than Motivator’s where many horses in behind him either didn’t handle the ground (much softer than official description) or failed to get home.
This years Derby was no where near the worst.
Quote: from empty wallet on 4:49 pm on Jan. 16, 2007[br]Look, i’ve argued toss about GW before and he was a the top 3yo in Europe, but class he was not
(Edited by empty wallet at 4:49 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)<br>
Now im the biggest skeptic around here and even i fail to see how anyone can say this horse wasn’t class. His form as a three year maybe didnt quite match that of his 2yo career.
He was the best european 3yo without a doubt
True DJ, but the IHFA rankings are the view of many handicappers and not just one
We can argue toss about horses forever and no one will convince me that GW was anything but a top European 3yo miler last year beating trees and no better than that
Rail Link proved ( may have been fortunate) that in beating those horse mentioned he was better
FFS how anyone could rate either of GW’s two wins 130 or above is beyond me and looks to be beyond the IFHA – 130 or above is Top shelf animals
(Edited by empty wallet at 5:10 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)
Quote: from empty wallet on 5:01 pm on Jan. 16, 2007[br]True DJ, but the IHFA rankings are the view of many handicappers and not just one
We can argue toss about horses forever and no one will convince me that GW was anything but a top European 3yo miler last year beating trees and no better than that
Rail Link proved ( may have been fortunate) that in beating those horse mentioned he was better
FFS how anyone could rate GW’s  either of his  two wins 130 or above  is beyond me and looks to be beyond the IFHA – 130 or above is Top shelf animals
(Edited by empty wallet at 5:05 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)<br>
But, what did Rail Link beat??????
He beat names, nothing else – you take the form on face value and you think, wow he must be pretty special to beat these animals.
Then you actually look at Hurricane Run’s form this year, which was nothing more than ordinary, the KG was poor.
Shirocco, was over the top, which was the concern before the race.
Deep Impact, may have won for a better ride, but i doubt he would be in the top bracket if trained in Europe
The fact that Best Name was placed fourth just shows how weak this race was.
The only horse that you can call top class from the race was Pride, and she should and would have won with a clear run. Th fact that in her two previous attempts in the Arc she had only managed 13th and 7th shows this was a poor Arc.
I maybe wrong………. Rail Link might have been utter top class, but he only just beat Youmzain, and for a horse to go on and win the Arc off the back of that form suggests it was either a fluke or a very bad race.
Look were Araafa, Libretist finished in Breeders Cup Mile, look where GW finished in Classic, look where Court Masterpiece finished at Kyoto and Hanshin
Top class, my arse
Stormont
Since – Pride – Champion winner/HK Cup winner, Deep Impact -Japan Cup winner, Kinen winner, Hurricane Run – Champion 3rd, (previously KG winner) i could go on and on
He did not beat trees like the overrated, over hyped one
(Edited by empty wallet at 5:55 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)
the ratings are up on site now:
http://www.horseracingintfed.com/resour … nkings.asp
..and dare one hazard a guess at the way RPR / Zorro may now go re Deep Impact:  ;) ÂÂÂ
"the only horse to appear twice in the top 20:  at number 4 (on 127) for his long-distance Arima Kinen run,  and then again at number 14 (on 123) for his extended distance Spring Tenno Sho run "?
best regards
wit
Using Pride’s form from previous seasons to argue that it was a poor Arc doesn’t hold sway for me as the Mare had obviously improved again this season.
I also think that Youmzain is an underrated horse. Ignoring his runs on GF (1 win, 1 loss) he was beaten only by Rail Link and the Irish Derby winner and in between managed to beat the BC Turf winner. Given at least some cut in the ground and 12f Youmzain is a pretty decent animal.
Although I think the weight allowance in the Arc heavily favours 3yo’s. Only 2 of the last 11 winners were older.
I think that’s more to do with the preps they get, rather than the weight allowance.
Overall, I wouldn’t argue that any of the top 10 horses should be rated more than a pound or two either way. Pretty good list really.<br>
Discreet Cat is too high IMO, he still has not proved anything to me. Won the UAE derby when the two only horses to compete with him that day were ‘under the weather’ shall we say.
I presume that the two horses that you’re talking about were the Ian Jory duo, Simpatico Bribon and Gold For Sale? Invasor himself was trashed too in it too, remember.<br>
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