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It’s all part of the clique. If your a ‘face’, you’ll have no trouble getting on. As an outsider, though, forget it.
Where would you like it to be moved too though Marb? This is surely the most appropriate section for the thread. Its hardly one for the lays and plays or systems sections or the lounge.
I would say betting and horseracing go together more like pubs and alcohol than anything else, you dont have to drink alcohol in a pub but its what most people go there for.
I can tell you are annoyed because the Clare Balding thread was moved but that IMO was a sensible decision by the mods. The Lounge is the place where we can talk about anything not even remotely horse racing related. If someone logs into TRF for the first time, looks in the "Horseracing" section, clicks on the Balding/Treadwell topic and finds everyone on the forum arguing about God, Guns, Obama etc then IMO a) they’ll think what sort of forum is this? and b) they wont get an accurate idea of how the forum generally is.
IMO every once in a while a topic can drift off topic over a simple comment or strong post, and can descend into an argument, or uncomfortable reading, but that one went way off topic, and where I think everyone has the right to discuss whatever they want, there is a time and a place for everything, and I dont think I was alone in thinking the lounge was more appropriate.
On the other hand if they log into the Horseracing section and see a thread featuring well balanced discussion about bookmakers closing down profitable accounts, I dont think they would see it as that out of place really, and may even find the thread informative, or may have an opinion, as I and many others have.
I suppose i’m trying to highlight this thread isn’t informative at all and doesn’t do the sport any justice whatsoever.
We all have different opinions but I find this thread informative and thought provoking as it is about an aspect of the sport (or betting on the sport) that I strongly disagree with. The fact that it has gotten to 3 pages in a day must surely highlight that others have an opinion on the matter too.
FWIW I think Davidbrady is merely stating his stance rather than having a pop with a remark Marb. Not having a go either, that is just my outlook on the matter.
I’ve got a huge local choice of Turf Accountants to choose from. To support Carvillshill, I’ll be restricting my bookie visits to William Hill PLC.
Receiving letters from bookmakers informing you that they have closed your account is a two edge sword.
Of course your letter means that you may have bragging rights down the pub but you do not have to have made a profit overall or even annually just a few goods months is enough with many to have them close your account.
The next problem is that you have to find and set up another account.
Whilst Ladbrokes.com do is to not actually close on line accounts but place restrictions they impose means one cant bet with them anyway.
I have a ‘pop up’ informing me my max stake is a fiver.
Mike Quiqley from the London Racing Club has I think over 10 accounts closed down. Click on ‘betting credentials’ at http://www.mikequiqley.co.uk
again good bragging rights but 10 accounts he cannot no longer use.With reference as to how Patrick Veitch manages to get his money on the clue was in how he uses agents and even sub agents.
In the extract yesterday in the Racing Post a large part of the article was about the agents used to get the money on.
These were not set up
solely
for the Exponmential gamble but would have been guys known and trusted from many bets in the past not only to return the winnings but more inportantly to keep the knowledge to themselves.
Before the days of the exchanges many Irish bookmakers such as Ross Brothers and Chronicle used to fax over prices in the morning to account holders that requested prices they used to have many trainers and owners who bet with them knowing they could get on and without the likes of Coral, Hills etc knowing whose money it was.
All the likes of Ross Brothers did was add a bit for themselves and to use 1 main agent over in this country and he would get upwards of 15 sub agents to get small cash bets on with the likes of Hills, Corals and Ladbrokes again without them knowing whose actual money was on.
They also used English bookmakers to take the bets for the shrewd Irish account holders the same way.
There was no pay as such and not even petrol money but there were many winners up to 33/1 and placed horses up to 50/1.
I did it for one summer, we had to get small ammounts on with high street bookmakers. We were meant to get every bet photo copied or sometimes were instructed just to hand the betting slip over for someone else to collect.
It was all designed much the same way as Patrick Veitch seems to work in not giving a clue as to whose actual money it was and what the total staked was.
It’s all part of the clique. If your a ‘face’, you’ll have no trouble getting on. As an outsider, though, forget it.
How does one become a "face"?
Oh come on TDK what kind of question is that for a bookmaker?.
If you are known to be in the know you automatically become "a face" and they give you a nickname to go with it.
You don’t have to be a loser to get money on either. I bet with Alex Farquhar (Macbet) for years among others and he was always glad to lay me and pay me out. Very often I would bet on course two hours or so before the first and you can bet your backside he never lost when I won.
In many cases with large bets comes good information and a bookie can use that to his adavantage can he not?
Carv situation is totally different I assume and if you win through your own skill contiuously your a certainty to get the boot
To address a few of the points raised on this thread.
Why not use an exchange?
My edge is pricing a race the night before and taking advantage of odds-compilers mistakes in the morning. A very few opinions set the early odds and by the time the Betfair market offers sufficient liquidity for me those mistakes have usually disappeared. As TDK says, I’d prefer one fully functioning bookmaker account than a Betfair one. Indeed, I’m not averse to bluffing the early Betfair markets to try and help the morning odds.
David’s point about each-way betting being important:
It wouldn’t bother me if I was banned from having another each-way bet again. The extent of my each-way is usually to cover the win stake on a decent priced selection but the real profits are in the win part of my bets.
One or two people have chided me for getting my account closed saying I should have been more circumspect.
I’d love to know how you do this: I didn’t go on a crusade to try and "beat" Billy Hills, they just happen to be the only big firm offering guaranteed odds who would lay me what I wanted in the past year or so. I estimate I won about 6.5k off them this year so far, not a lot for a multi million pound operation to suffer! I haven’t got figures for last year but would be surprised if it were any more pro-rata. I suspect the straw that broke the camel’s back might have been getting 20-1 about Wichita Lineman NRNB in their race at Cheltenham. I’m the opposite of the Macho Joe who needs these type of emails for validation and will often stop betting with a firm for a while if I get a run of results with them. I was genuinely surprised to get this email and it’s the first straightforward account closure one I’ve had in a while. Most firms as others have said simply restrict you to the point where it’s not worth bothering with them anymore. At least the Hills approach is honest- one suspects the others want to avoid the bad publicity of it becoming known that they don’t allow consistent winners.
The future? "putter-on-ers" are already a reality for me and will become more important going forward. the best kind are those who live near a betting shop as I find "ghost" accounts don’t last very long either.- Total Posts 17716
I thought it was bad in my day back in the Uk but for a company like Hills to close your account for 6.5 K over a year is shocking.
There are course bookies laying bets to take that amount and more out the book every day of the week.
TDK might be able to enlighten us how the closure of accounts comes about.
It wouldn’t surprise me if nowadays accounts to close are seleceted by a computer.
Most of the talk about people getting big bets on with bookies are a wind up, I don’t doubt some people do and have done it. Someone with a sort of celebrity punter status might.
I think Betfair and the bookies know that there are a few of their customers who are far smarter than they are.
Imo, it doesn’t do the industry any harm to put out nonsense stories about taking fantasy bets of 100’s of 1000’s, if it keeps the public interested.
I thought it was bad in my day back in the Uk but for a company like Hills to close your account for 6.5 K over a year is shocking.
There are course bookies laying bets to take that amount and more out the book every day of the week.
TDK might be able to enlighten us how the closure of accounts comes about.
It wouldn’t surprise me if nowadays accounts to close are seleceted by a computer.
Are there?
To come back to "Enemy Number One" for a minute, the number one factor that has made Veitch successful in his punting career is his ability and determination to get his bets on.
There are a number of people who are as good at unearthing value as he is , but very few (if any) who are as good at getting the money down.
Seagull wrote :
Mike Quiqley from the London Racing Club has I think over 10 accounts closed down. Click on ‘betting credentials’ at http://www.mikequiqley.co.uk
again good bragging rights but 10 accounts he cannot no longer use.Link should be :http://www.mikequigley.co.uk/index.php.
- Total Posts 17716
I thought it was bad in my day back in the Uk but for a company like Hills to close your account for 6.5 K over a year is shocking.
There are course bookies laying bets to take that amount and more out the book every day of the week.
TDK might be able to enlighten us how the closure of accounts comes about.
It wouldn’t surprise me if nowadays accounts to close are seleceted by a computer.
Are there?
Yes!!!
or I wouldn’t have said so.- Total Posts 17716
Carv
I’d suspect it is the manner of your betting, rather than the amount won, that’s caused your problem with W Hill. I’ve certainly had better runs with them, and on more than one account, without ever being closed down.
For some reason the major bookmakers seem paranoid about arbers, and if you’re only going in when they are top price, or above the exchanges, then how are they to know you’re not trading. They certainly seem to jump on it quicker than they do with an ordinarily successful bettor.
Different company I know, but maybe TDK could shed some light on this apparent (and mysifying) policy?I am intrigued to know, bar the possible exception of Macbet (if he still operates on track), who these layers are. Most cling to the fact that they don’t have to lay a horse to lose more than £1,000. I know it is difficult for you to comprehend from your beach resort, but the on-course market is not the same as it was in 1965. If you ever come back to these shores and go to the races, can I come and watch you back these 13/2 shots for 1k, particularly on a Monday at a minor meeting.
- Total Posts 17716
Alex (Macbet) retired in 2003 that’s only 6 years ago and things haven’t changed that much.
In no way do I mean to be disrespectful but is it possible you have never had a big bet at the track and are guessing?
In 2002 the same man laid me a very large bet on a horse of Lenny Lungo’s and did so with a smile on his face. Won the Pertemps damned if I can remember it’s name.
Freddie Williams laid AP mcMaunus 2 bets that took a million quid out the ring in 2006
They used to say if Terry Ramsden lost 2 mil in a week that was a good week.
Man could get anything on but was a woeful punter.There are still plenty rails and on course bookmakers who will lay plenty. Ask Harry Findlay who took an absolute fortune out the ring when Denman won the Royal & Sun Alliance Chase and took even more out when he won the Gold Cup.
You can get plenty on at the likes of Ayr is the first race on a Monday just don’t expect to get paid out until after the last or the following day
Your talking high street accountants Smithy and every day punters not real bookies and faces.
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