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Well he had Bula right behind him Monkey so I don’t know if he wud have won any more to be honest. Followed then by Comedy. Bula was a brilliant horse. Personally I think he was underrated. I’d have him right up there with any of them. Persian War was a class act though – no doubt. So many brilliant hurdlers in the 70s. Truly thee golden era – nothing can hold a light to it. What about a few forgotten heroes like Birds Nest and Dramatist? Even horses like that would be winning champion hurdles today no bother. Just happened they ran into the best bunch of all time.
Bbobbell? Can’t have that. Night Nurse and Monkey were the ultimate warriors. Persian War was a mighty horse too. To say he would have finished "well clear" of these two legends is not on. It would have been a battle royale with Monkey just edging it for me – BUT saying all that they ALL would have been left trailing in the wake of the greatest NH hurdler of all time in the Cygnet. Of THAT I have no doubt.
Okay, fair enough, I am prone to exageration when it comes to Persian War as the horse has a high place in my affections and right enough Monkey was a right battler, but I stand by my assertion that Persian War would have won but it would have been a mighty bit closer on reflection.
Fairy snudd bbbobbell – I can live with that. As long as you surrender and agree the Cygnet wud have been ahead of the lot!!
I agree that Golden Cygnet had the abilty to have been the best of all had it not been for his ill fated fall – a tremendously talented hurdler. We were robbed of a potential superstar.
Night Nurse at his best would have burned Persian War into the ground – and Istabraq would have left him dead for pace. Just my opinion. Persian War was more in the mould of Monksfield – good, gutsy battler.
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Do u think Arkle is actually underrated at 212 Himself? Horses today are being given very high ratings for achieving the square root of fck all .Look at this Snoopy Loopy. I think Horses like Arkle and Mill House wud give virtually ANY amount of weight to 99% of chasers today and STILL beat them out of sight. If you rate Kauto and Denman at around the 184 mark and Arkle at 212 – dats 2 stone. I think Arkle cud give them another 7 lbs easy – maybe a stone.
Will ever be fully proven, but records over that period show Arkle was over-rated if anything, alng with a few others over those years.
Do u think Arkle is actually underrated at 212 Himself? Horses today are being given very high ratings for achieving the square root of fck all .Look at this Snoopy Loopy. I think Horses like Arkle and Mill House wud give virtually ANY amount of weight to 99% of chasers today and STILL beat them out of sight. If you rate Kauto and Denman at around the 184 mark and Arkle at 212 – dats 2 stone. I think Arkle cud give them another 7 lbs easy – maybe a stone.
Harbour Pilot, as much as I rate Arkle, and like most racing fans, appreciate what he achieved, I think it highly unlikely that he could have given Kauto Star or Denman two stones and beaten them – likewise Mill House.
As Jim McGrath of Timeform recently pointed out, NH races in the 60s were generally run at a slower pace than they are today – and although Arkle would no doubt have adapted to modern day conditions and seen off most of today’s horses without too much difficulty, I feel the task of having to concede vast amounts of weight to Paul Nicholls’s two stars would probably have been beyond even his great talents –
albeit at levels, there would only have been one winner.
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Fairy snudd bbbobbell – I can live with that. As long as you surrender and agree the Cygnet wud have been ahead of the lot!! :D
Oh, go on then anything for a quiet forum. Have a happy New Year Harbour Pilot and everybody else for that matter.
Well he had Bula right behind him Monkey so I don’t know if he wud have won any more to be honest. Followed then by Comedy. Bula was a brilliant horse. Personally I think he was underrated. I’d have him right up there with any of them. Persian War was a class act though – no doubt. So many brilliant hurdlers in the 70s. Truly thee golden era – nothing can hold a light to it. What about a few forgotten heroes like Birds Nest and Dramatist? Even horses like that would be winning champion hurdles today no bother. Just happened they ran into the best bunch of all time.
I wouldn’t just have had Bula up there with them I would rate him as the best I ever saw. I was ahuge fan of Persian War who was brilliant, but he wore the opposition down withsustainedrunsfromabout 3 out, but Bula not only stayed(3rd in the Gold Cup in his latter years) he had an awesome turn of foot not even Persian War could live with.
I will never forget in one of the trials you would have laid him for everything you had when he was lying in 5th approchaing the last.He must have been 10 lengths behind the leader on landing and he shot past the lot of them and won by about 2 or 3 lengths…..He won the CH in the sma e way leaving PW and the rast in his wake…I can’t remember how many races he won on the trot but he won 21 of his 26 hurdle races.An awesome record for an awesome horse.
Got feeling bbobbell and I had this discussion before
Do u think Arkle is actually underrated at 212 Himself? Horses today are being given very high ratings for achieving the square root of fck all .Look at this Snoopy Loopy. I think Horses like Arkle and Mill House wud give virtually ANY amount of weight to 99% of chasers today and STILL beat them out of sight. If you rate Kauto and Denman at around the 184 mark and Arkle at 212 – dats 2 stone. I think Arkle cud give them another 7 lbs easy – maybe a stone.
Harbour Pilot, as much as I rate Arkle, and like most racing fans, appreciate what he achieved, I think it highly unlikely that he could have given Kauto Star or Denman two stones and beaten them – likewise Mill House.
As Jim McGrath of Timeform recently pointed out, NH races in the 60s were generally run at a slower pace than they are today – and although Arkle would no doubt have adapted to modern day conditions and seen off most of today’s horses without too much difficulty, I feel the task of having to concede vast amounts of weight to Paul Nicholls’s two stars would probably have been beyond even his great talents –
albeit at levels, there would only have been one winner. :wink:
Can’t have that. Arkle was two stone better than Kauto Star no question in my mind. When Kauto Star gives two stone and more away in a top class handicap and win by 15 lengths or more then we can start talking and remember that Arkle never shirked a fight either.
Not that i question Kauto’s courage I just saw Arkle battle under big weights in defeat too often to doubt his superiority over the current bunch who are good, very good, but not yet quite in the same street as the great horse. Time might prove me wrong, that being the case I will be delighted to be so as there is no finer site in racing than a truly champion chaser
Arkle was beaten by a very good horse the grey Stalbridge Colonist with Whitbread GoldCup winner What A Myth just behind in the 1966 Hennessy Gold Cup.
Back then the Hennessy was a Grade1 race and much more prestigious and difficult to win than it is nowadays
Both Stalbridge Colonist 7 years old and What a Myth 9 yeras old were top nothch chaser atthe time.
What a Myth was 7/2 2nd favourite for the Hennessy from figures going into the race were F111F1/F222/11111F1-1 which are better looking than most topchasers today
Stalbride Colonist 25/1 had been badly out of form but a look at his form figures 611/12111310111111F/2F5 would give you and idea of how good he was on his day
He also finished 2nd in the Hennessy 1967 beaten a head attempting to give Bob Turnell’s Rondetto. Rondetto himself won something like 20 races in his long career.
What a Myth was in 3rd only 1/2 length hewas giving 2 lbs to Stalbridge Colonist and 18 lbs to the winner.
That puts Hennessy winner Rondetto an amazing 53lbs behind Arkle.
In the absence of Arkle Stalbridge Colonist also finished a close 3rd in The Cheltenham Gold Cup won by Fort Leney a real top class horse
What makes the 1966 Hennessy amazing is an interveiw that took place with Stan Mellor.
Stan reckoned that he was exceptionally lucky as Pat Taffe failed to notice him tucked in behind him 3 out. "Arkle didn’t have instant acceleration which proved to be his downfall thatday but if Pat had seen me he would have kicked on 3 out and beat me 25 lengths"
Considering Arkle was giving him 35lbs that is some compliment coming from Stan Mellor rode over 1000 national hunt winners.
I would hope no one would regard such a hero of the sport as a fool or think they know better than he did.
I’m a huge fan of Kauto Star…….Was Arkle 2 stone better than him?
If you think about it Arkle had to give 2 stone 7lbs to Stalbridge Colonist and What A Myth.
If Kauto was only 2stone inferior then he would have to have given SC and WAM 7lbs unless you take what Stan Mellor said about Arkle into account.
Then you would have to say Kauto would have to have given them more weight to allow for the 25 lengths he reckons Arkle could have won the 1966 Hennessy by.
The mind boggles when you compare KautoStar V Monet Garden at a stone difference as the latter is certainly no where near the class of horse that either What A Myth or Stalbridge Colonist were in their hay days.
I don’t know how much weight Arkle could have given Kauto Star but I do know that if they met at Cheltenhamit’s I am prepared to say giving him a stone Arkle would have left him 20 to 30 lengths in his wake.
However Arkle 12 stone and Kauto Star 10 stone would be something a whole lot diferrent.
The 12 Stone wouldn’t stop Arkle but Kauto Star with 10 stone is too much to take in……Kauto can quicken in an instant with 12 stone on his back can you imagine what he would be like with 10 stone on his back………Ruby if he could do the weight would think he had gone into orbit……it would probably be very much like today in the sense if Kauto Star could stay with him like he would have to with Denman today he would beat him for toe on the run to the line.
Arkle 212 would for me not be far away..So please when you are talking about his rating being too high let’s have some reasons for your statements……….too many people on here say things with absolutely no substance behind it.
It’s not a maths class Fist ffs. I just said I thot Arkle was rated too low seeing some of the unreal ratings coming out today for horses that i would consider practical nags – especially if they had to race against the horses of the calibre of What a Myth and Fort Leney and Stalbridge Colonist and Mill House. It’s today’s society I spose. I think the ratings are given too easily today hence when der was a degree of reality in proceedings in the 60s the ratings were handed out with an ounce of common sense. If Arkle was running today I’d say they’d have him a lot higher than 212.
Phil Bull ( founder of Timeform) had no time for NH racing, so probably didn’t care less how highly ( or lowly ) Arkle was rated.
That said, he also felt, in retrospect, that some horses on the flat were probably attributed too high a figure – in particular Brigadier Gerard, for some reason. He argued with Reg Griffin that the Brigadier’s overall timeform rating of 144 was too high, considering ( as he felt) that very good Derby winners, like Sir Ivor, had been rated a few pounds below the great miler. Needless to say, Griffin gave the old man short shrift and would have none of it, so the Brigadier’s figure stood.
Sorry, I digress.
I am well aware of the calibre of Arkle and the massive weight he had to concede to good horses; however, I stand by my assertion that he could not have conceded 2 stones plus to either Kauto Star or Denman – or for that matter Pendil, Burrough Hill Lad or Silver Buck, for example.
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