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Leaves the "great" Frankel some place reserved for "chickens".
Over a 11/4m
Frankel
would beat her,in an Arc he’d lose to her though.Lets just remember
Flintshire
was 2nd a horse I was shouting from the rooftops for last years race,sadly he aint one of Andre Fabres best Arc horses.I agree about ‘Frankel’ connections failing to test the horse over the trip of Champions mind.
I’d have bet my last pound that Frankel would’ve steamed Treve in an Arc. I know it appears kinda bold me saying it since he never ran at 12f but looking at the way he sauntered home in the International and screwing Cirrus Des Aigles in the Champion, there’s no doubt in my mind that Frankel would’ve stayed 12 furlongs.
In all the years I’ve watched horses and racing, I’ve never seen a horse that has came across as formidable, determined and ruthless as Frankel. Sometimes, you just know a horse.
Leaves the "great" Frankel some place reserved for "chickens".
Over a 11/4m
Frankel
would beat her,in an Arc he’d lose to her though.Lets just remember
Flintshire
was 2nd a horse I was shouting from the rooftops for last years race,sadly he aint one of Andre Fabres best Arc horses.I agree about ‘Frankel’ connections failing to test the horse over the trip of Champions mind.
I’d have bet my last pound that Frankel would’ve steamed Treve in an Arc. I know it appears kinda bold me saying it since he never ran at 12f but looking at the way he sauntered home in the International and screwing Cirrus Des Aigles in the Champion, there’s no doubt in my mind that Frankel would’ve stayed 12 furlongs.
In all the years I’ve watched horses and racing, I’ve never seen a horse that has came across as formidable, determined and ruthless as Frankel. Sometimes, you just know a horse.
Well thats the Million dollar question Ghost.I agree about knowing your Horses,I remember steaming in on
Dancing Brave
for the 2000 Gns on Oct 14th 1985 after he made his Debut.William Hill went 16/1. A fortnight later he won over the Guineas mile as a 2yo and I took the 25/1 for the Derby.Hills only cut him to 14/1 for the Guineas so I went in again…..The rest they say is History but at least Prince Khaled campaigned him like the ultimate Champion he was……You dont think ‘Frankel’ would have beaten this fellow in the Arc do you?
I doubt very much that Frankel would have won an arc and sir Henry knew that as well hence the reason he never ran him over 12f. As for him beating dancing brave that is cloud cuckoo land stuff. Dancing brave to me is the best 12f horse along with alleged over the last 40 years and Frankel wouldn’t have beaten either of them, people tend to forget Frankels last 2l defeat of cirrus da and that was over 10f and he wasn’t pulling away at the end. Hard to judge this years arc but the fact that Flintshire was second suggests it wasn’t vintage IMHO.
Over a 11/4m
Frankel
would beat her,in an Arc he’d lose to her though.Lets just remember
Flintshire
was 2nd a horse I was shouting from the rooftops for last years race,sadly he aint one of Andre Fabres best Arc horses.I agree about ‘Frankel’ connections failing to test the horse over the trip of Champions mind.
I’d have bet my last pound that Frankel would’ve steamed Treve in an Arc. I know it appears kinda bold me saying it since he never ran at 12f but looking at the way he sauntered home in the International and screwing Cirrus Des Aigles in the Champion, there’s no doubt in my mind that Frankel would’ve stayed 12 furlongs.
In all the years I’ve watched horses and racing, I’ve never seen a horse that has came across as formidable, determined and ruthless as Frankel. Sometimes, you just know a horse.
Well thats the Million dollar question Ghost.I agree about knowing your Horses,I remember steaming in on
Dancing Brave
for the 2000 Gns on Oct 14th 1985 after he made his Debut.William Hill went 16/1. A fortnight later he won over the Guineas mile as a 2yo and I took the 25/1 for the Derby.Hills only cut him to 14/1 for the Guineas so I went in again…..The rest they say is History but at least Prince Khaled campaigned him like the ultimate Champion he was……You dont think ‘Frankel’ would have beaten this fellow in the Arc do you?
Now that’s a difficult but very good question TAPK.
As you’re aware, Dancing Brave is my old favourite and Frankel is my recent favourite. Both of these horses have a huge place in my heart and were exceptionally gifted.
I think many people forget that Dancing Brave could’ve easily have been a top miler just like Frankel had he’d been campaigned that way in an alternate world. I dare say that there are those who think that Frankel could’ve been campaigned like DB too. Despite Frankel pulling hard early on in his career, the horse still showed sufficient intelligence to overcome this and win his races in blistering style … indicating that there was a abundance of energy still locked in somewhere and untapped, raw potential.
No matter what wealth of experience/knowledge Sir Henry Cecil had (and indeed any of us), the only one who knew Frankel best was Frankel himself. His Juddmonte International romp and the distance it took to pull him up after the winning post speaks for itself. Look at Frankel’s body language … he’s cantering with his head in his chest and looking on the sly at his surroundings. That horse knew how good he was! I find it interesting that following the International win, connections were even pondering about going for the Arc for a brief while … did Frankel and the manner of his win even cast doubts in Sir Henry’s mind about him not staying 12 furlongs?
Dancing Brave certainly was campaigned far more adventurously than Frankel in their 3YO seasons.However, DB paid the price for having such a demanding season and looked a ruined horse in the Breeders’ Cup. I sometimes wonder if connections of Dancing Brave would’ve gone for the St Leger (triple crown glory) if he’d won the Derby.
What sets these two greats apart was their contrasting styles. Frankel was dominant and firey with a turbo turn of foot that went on for ages. Dancing Brave was a gentle soul who possessed an ultra-violent turn of speed when asked to shoot down the target.
Frankel pitted against Dancing Brave? That 86 Arc line up, IMO, would’ve tested any of the greats. My gut feeling is that Dancing Brave could’ve beaten a 3YO Frankel. However, I’d have took the gamble on the 4YO reformed beast Frankel to draw the fierce sting out of Dancing Brave.
What sets these two greats apart was their contrasting styles. Frankel was dominant and firey with a turbo turn of foot that went on for ages. Dancing Brave was a gentle soul who possessed an ultra-violent turn of speed when asked to shoot down the target.
Frankel pitted against Dancing Brave? That 86 Arc line up, IMO, would’ve tested any of the greats. My gut feeling is that Dancing Brave could’ve beaten a 3YO Frankel. However, I’d have took the gamble on the 4YO reformed beast Frankel to draw the fierce sting out of Dancing Brave.
Great response there Ghost,trouble with the above is we never did get to see the 4yo
Dancing Brave
so I agree as 3yo’s the Harwood horse would come out on top over a 11/2m. The way
Frankel
won the Guineas I’d say he’d beat
Dancing Brave
over the mile but if the Ante-Post market for the 86 Arc was to include the 3yo ‘Frankel’ would he have been shorter than
Bering
?? Bearing in mind he had won the Sussex stakes and had never gone beyond a mile I reckon he would have been about a 6/1 shot but thats still behind
Bering 7/4f
,
Dancing Brave 3/1
,
Shahrastani 5/1
,
Shardari 6/1
.As a 4yo with his incredible form over 11/4m and the style of his victories I agree he would have won the Arc and probably traded the biggest price he ever had at 2/1
Didn’t realise this thread has morphed into one about my favourite horse. Happy to add my twopence.
I don’t think the Kind progeny really get a mile and a half.
Obviously it is hard to use Joyeuse and Morpheus as comparisons as they are by Oasis Dream but they are speedsters who don’t get more than a mile. Bullet Train who was by Sadlers Wells and who has a slightly higher stamina index than Galileo didn’t quite see out 12f though won well over slightly shorter at Lingfield. Noble Mission is a better horse over 10f than 12f and doesn’t quite see that distance out. The simple fact is that Frankel was also not a 12f horse. We all wanted him to be but the person who knew him best was adamant that he just wasn’t.
Saying that, I have no doubt Frankel could have won a Group 1 over 12f just as I have no doubt he could have won a Group 1 over 6f. He was a freak. He would probably have won the Derby that year (he had beaten the runner up by 11 lengths the year before). But I don’t think we would have seen the Frankel we saw as a 4 year old if he had run in the Derby. It would have ruined him. It would have stretched him too much at that stage of his career and there is a real chance he would not have stayed or at least been all out TO stay. Remember the Frankel of June 2011 was still some way short of the tractable 4 year old he would become. Tom Queally still hadn’t worked out how to ride him – witness the St James Palace two weeks later.
Also as Rob says, there is a price to pay. Dancing Brave did indeed have a bolder 3yr old campaign but he paid for it by the end of the season and was never seen again. Thanks to Henry’s handling Frankel ran 14 times over three seasons. I don’t think he would have won the Arc as a 4 year old either. As Edina says, he looked to me like he was tiring at the end of the Champion and the Arc that year was run on similarly heavy ground. I suspect that would have been too much for him.
As for Frankel v Dancing Brave. Well maybe in a hundred years we’ll have the technology to know. My guess is Frankel over 8f and 10f, Dancing Brave over 12f simply because Frankel was not a 12f horse.
Does it really matter though? Two superstar horses who will be remembered as long as we live.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
If Treve won three Arc’s (six generations) would that mean she was as good as Frankel?
If Treve won three Arc’s (six generations) would that mean she was as good as Frankel?
You trying to start a row??
. Probably less subjective would be whether she has achieved as much and I think its fair to say that 3 arcs is pretty lofty achievement.
SHL
If Treve won three Arc’s (six generations) would that mean she was as good as Frankel?
Dear old Andyod! There are two things I have learnt about you over the last few years:
1. You really don’t like Joseph O’ Brien
2. You really didn’t like Frankel.Most of your posts involve one or both of them even if the thread has nothing to do with them!
To answer your question do you think Best Mate was as good as Arkle coz he won 3 Gold Cups?
If Treve does it then she will have done something no other horse has done before and she will deservedly take her place in the history books. Good luck girl!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Didn’t realise this thread has morphed into one about my favourite horse. Happy to add my twopence.
I don’t think the Kind progeny really get a mile and a half.
Obviously it is hard to use Joyeuse and Morpheus as comparisons as they are by Oasis Dream but they are speedsters who don’t get more than a mile. Bullet Train who was by Sadlers Wells and who has a slightly higher stamina index than Galileo didn’t quite see out 12f though won well over slightly shorter at Lingfield. Noble Mission is a better horse over 10f than 12f and doesn’t quite see that distance out. The simple fact is that Frankel was also not a 12f horse. We all wanted him to be but the person who knew him best was adamant that he just wasn’t.
Saying that, I have no doubt Frankel could have won a Group 1 over 12f just as I have no doubt he could have won a Group 1 over 6f. He was a freak. He would probably have won the Derby that year (he had beaten the runner up by 11 lengths the year before). But I don’t think we would have seen the Frankel we saw as a 4 year old if he had run in the Derby. It would have ruined him. It would have stretched him too much at that stage of his career and there is a real chance he would not have stayed or at least been all out TO stay. Remember the Frankel of June 2011 was still some way short of the tractable 4 year old he would become. Tom Queally still hadn’t worked out how to ride him – witness the St James Palace two weeks later.
Also as Rob says, there is a price to pay. Dancing Brave did indeed have a bolder 3yr old campaign but he paid for it by the end of the season and was never seen again. Thanks to Henry’s handling Frankel ran 14 times over three seasons. I don’t think he would have won the Arc as a 4 year old either. As Edina says, he looked to me like he was tiring at the end of the Champion and the Arc that year was run on similarly heavy ground. I suspect that would have been too much for him.
As for Frankel v Dancing Brave. Well maybe in a hundred years we’ll have the technology to know. My guess is Frankel over 8f and 10f, Dancing Brave over 12f simply because Frankel was not a 12f horse.
Does it really matter though? Two superstar horses who will be remembered as long as we live.
Good post Joni,I’m surprised you dont think
Frankel
was a 12f horse though as a 4yo as like you say he was a different animal again at 4,far less headstrong.
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