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Not sure if there has been a thread on this subject previously , so apologies if there has.
I would be interested to hear others views on ;1) Who do you think is the most under rated trainer currently ?.
2) Who has been the most under rated over the last half century ?.I thought that I would start the ball rolling with my own views
1) Karl Burke
2) Paul ColeI thought Paul Cole has been OVER rated since the early 90s. Generous are Sri Pekan are the only above average horses he’s ever trained. But, maybe my memory is letting me down.
Karl Burke: how many Classics has he won and where are his Derby horses?
I think Ed Walker can be a very shrewd operator even at G1 level given his limited amount of competitive horses.
William Haggas is another one at targeting the ‘right’ G1 races, but I wouldn’t call him underrated.I wouldn’t say Burke is under-rated. And Cole was pretty high profile in his day.
Although not completely unknown Archie Watson maybe is one who over-indexes? 54 wins at Listed and above including 5 x Gr 1s. All more than I thought.
I’ve thought of a better one – Jane Chapple-Hyam – always under-0rated and runners often over-priced. She has a couple possibles today to prove me wrong!
Cormack
Paul Cole was very much a pioneer of sending horses overseas, not just once or twice, but running for good money abroad on a regular basis.
The horse that epitomised this approach was Ibn Bey, who won top class races in Ireland (Irish St Leger), France, Germany and Italy, before his crowning glory, a second in the Breeders Cup Classic, just a length behind the great Unbridled.
To get a proven stayer, who won the Irish Leger on his previous start, to achieve that over 10F on dirt against the best of the locals – that was some feat of training.
Later Group1 horses include Culture Vulture, Snurge and Zoman – the latter pair won Grade 1 races in the US and Canada on the same weekend. Then his Ascot Gold Cup winner, Mr Dinos.
But the biggest prize he won was with a 2yo called Luck Money, who picked up £675k by winning the Goffs Million and was subsequently sold for big money to the States.
I wouldn’t say Jane Chapple-Hym is “always under-rated” and for placing horses (which is an important aspect of training) she was imo one of the worst around. Might have improved a bit recently… But because she over-tries some… Her horses that do have a good chance of winning – I agree – are often under-rated by the market at least… And when getting a good one she’s certainly a trainer capable.
Good shout with Paul Cole. Certainly amongst the top echelon at one point. Doesn’t get the quality these days, but imo still does well with the horses he has.
Value Is EverythingIn flat racing
1) This season ( and last couple ) Richard Teal , he’s boxing well above his weight , places his horses well with a solid win %
2) Tougher , maybe Clive Brittain , he was winning group races when Stoute and Cecil were at there best ( does anyone else miss Cecil on weeks like this , I respect Obrien but Jesus as a man he can’t touch Cecil )
Pick 3 on Saturday champion 2025/2026
This. You have absolutely hit the bullseye in my view.
Nobody is bigger than the sport , but it isn’t the same since the loss of the great man.Paul Cole travelled horse to race in Russia at one stage , did that big owner of his move on to Sir Henry Cecil that caused the dip ?? .
Saw Ibn Bey at Lingfield evening meeting one day in 3 runner race , Mountain Kingdom was another runner , cracking 3 runner .
Paul Cole not overrated imho , he can train .Paul Cole had his last G1 winner back in 2002 in France, maybe he had something abroad in the years after.
In the Fahd Salman years he was the 1st trainer I’d look for when running a juvenile, besides Peter Chapple-Hyam and David Loder. But those days are long gone and from the past it was Martyn Arbib I think who still provided him with ammunition. That’s over two decades ago.
Agree with HDLG, I still compare every Royal Ascot winner with something from Sir Henry or Sir Michael. Those good old days are long gone.
I also remember when Andre Fabre used to send his to top G1 performers over to GB.I think that Paul Cole trained 40 ish Group 1 winners worldwide , back in the day. Yet I don’t think that he trained for the Makhtoum family , that was a pre requisite for success , back then.
I was watching a few old races yesterday , Paris House popped up in the Flying Childers , after race commentator said that was the 85th win for Jack Berry in juvenile races that season . Paul Cole had more quality overall with 2 year olds but Jack Berry volume surely wouldn’t be matched now . Clantime was one I recall as being very good early on .
Losing the sheik along with the break up with wife no2 , at its worst he also had a hay based virus which effected the stable for a number of years until found and resolved ….. then came Frankel , things were so bad at one point he had to start a racing club , imagine going to Cecils as a member of that !! , Cecil was above racing , as I said you can respect Obrien , maybe even Gosden , but Cecil was above them because he loved his horses , he nurtured them , one of my all time favs is Reference Point , his team performed miracles getting him to run in the Derby never mind win it
Pick 3 on Saturday champion 2025/2026
“Martyn Arbib I think who still provided him with ammunition. That’s over two decades ago.”
Martyn and Ben Arbib had the popular grey mudlark Sumo Sam, who won two Group Two races for the Coles last year.
It’s funny that for all the squiilions of Group One winners Coolmore have had over the years, they have never had a true champion: their highest rated horse (on Timeform, at least) was Hawk Wing, with that dubious 136 from the Lockinge. Stoute has had two 140 horses (Shergar and Harbinger) and a 137 (Zilzal), as well as another 136, in Shahrastani. Cecil trained a 147 (Frankel) and a 139 (Reference Point), as well as two more 136 horses (Slip Anchor and Old Vic).
I’d say Gladiateur that Harbinger’s 140 was also possibly a few pounds too high. But Tiemfiorm’s David Johnson makes a stout defence here https://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/why-harbinger-earned-a-timeform-rating-of-140-and-is-one-of-stoutes-best-horses/220604
Talking of Paul Cole, I see one running in the last today at Ascot called Yorkshire. Didn’t he have one similarly named at one time, half decent if I remember.
There was indeed, cormack15.
Foaled in 1994, Yorkshire was an impressive maiden winner on his only start at two and was rated 90p by Timeform. He didn’t make the anticipated progress at three, failing to win in six starts (including the German Derby) and was rated 108. Returning at four, he won a minor event and ran well otherwise, earning 113. He missed his 5yo season, but returned to run with credit at six, dropping to 110. His final season on the flat saw him win three handicaps and run well elsewhere, reaching 113 again.
He had become increasingly quirky, so was sold in May 2002 to join Dai Williams. Yorkshire ran with credit and won some novice hurdles but earned the dreaded Timeform squiggle, ending his novice season at 124$ (can’t find the squiggle on my keyboard!). He raced on in 2003-4 without success, and his Timeform jumps rating fell to 110. His final note in Chasers & Hurdlers 2003-04 says “dead”, but I cannot find out how he died. A sad epitaph for a horse who had run fifth in the Melbourne Cup in his youth and with credit in many other top handicaps.
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