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Would agree with that, Paul…….but can we have just a little less quantity please!
Colin
Is our Supreme Leader morphing into a troll?
By initiating threads with the titles
Jumps over – Bring on the Guineas
and
The Grand National – Racing’s Jewel in the Crown
one may be forgiven for thinking so
The individual preference for flat or jump racing is obviously a matter of opinion but one thing I have noticed during my years of following both codes is that the majority of genuine horse racing enthusiasts prefer jump racing whilst the majority of gambling enthusiasts ( who only follow horse racing to bet and would ignore it otherwise ) prefer flat racing.
I also have to agree with paulostermeyer that the variety of horse racing in this country ( including the AW which has a role to play in our sport as long as it does not become more dominant than turf racing as the majority of racing enthusiasts prefer the turf imo ) is something to be celebrated.
Pete
- Total Posts 438
the real stuff.
Immature animals trying to keep in a straight line for five furlongs? Horses improving at different rates, due to said immaturity, rendering the formbook almost obsolete? Crooked jockeys and even more crooked trainers? Big races dominated by two groups of billionaire owners? The best horses packed off to stud at the end of the season?
Give me the jumps any day of the week.
What a load of old [expletive].
Brilliant post, Euro.; you could at least try to support your opinion. Bulwark: your answers may be more verbose but your arguments hold little water; Maxilon, ditto.
Two-year-old racing, especially early in the seaon on tiring ground, is more of an infringement on animal rights than the Grand National will ever be. The main equine protagonists on the flat are still developing, making the form more difficult to read. Are you denying that Coolmore and Godolphin have too much of a stranglehold on the main races? Similarly, do you really believe that jump racing is less honest than the flat? And do you build up more of a rapport with flat horses than you do with their National Hunt counterparts?
- Total Posts 438
If you bare in mind that for about 75% of the length of time watching the avergae jumps race you are watching horses do little more than canter, and the race only gets competitive (exciting) from about the second or third fence out
I was going to dissect your post comment by comment but there’s really no need when you type rubbish like the above.
Why would ANYONE with a passion for the horse be arguing about whether NH is better than the Flat or vice-versa? I certainly don’t. I love the exhibition of a thoroughbred being asked to compete in reckless feats of speed, stamina or leaping without the rider on board having the opportunity to press buttons and flick switches. It is a beautiful sport.
Those that grumble over the two racing types, I tend to believe are not as passionate as they would have hoped to be.
- Total Posts 438
Why would ANYONE with a passion for the horse be arguing about whether NH is better than the Flat or vice-versa?
Good question. I assume that this thread was started in a firmly tongue-in-cheek manner, hence the responses have been in a similar vein. However, some users have decided to take things one step further and, consequently, things have escalated. It’s a shame that this has happened (perhaps it shows a lack of judgment by the staff to start a thread with such potential for argument in the first place?) but if someone questions my arguments, I’ll back them up. For example, Bulwark has chosen a sample size of ten- yes, a whole ten– races to say that there is as much competition on the flat as there is over jumps. You can draw your own conclusions.
I love the exhibition of a thoroughbred being asked to compete in reckless feats of speed, stamina or leaping without the rider on board having the opportunity to press buttons and flick switches.
No disrespect meant, MDeering, but if that’s what you honestly believe, you have a lot to learn about the sport.
It is a beautiful sport.
Couldn’t agree more.
With all the greatest of respect, Yquem21, you were the one that escalated matters. Bulwark supplies a advance tips for virtually every big jumps race alongside a personal betting skeleton in Daily Lays and Plays. I think he loves the sport. I’ve admitted to loving jump racing.
I just prefer the flat; it’s no big deal.
I am debating with you about a factually based comment you made last night about duopoly on the flat. Your comment doesn’t hold water. It may have done in the late nineties and early part of this millienia, but certainly not recently. I would have stayed quietly on my perch had you commented thus on National Hunt racing which is in the temporary grip of a constricting monopoly.
When Forest Pennant won that handicap hurdle yesterday at a ridiculous price with probably 20lb in hand, I knew instinctively that NH has a temporary problem. Nicholls increased his prize money to over three million pounds in a sport which is supposed to be for the green wellied enthusiast and is not supposed to be about money. That’s a myth. Yet, the relative distribution of prize money amongst flat trainers in the last two years is less skewed.
I’m not sure the monopoly will last – it never does in racing: the virus sees to that – but no sport is of long term interest when a monopoly takes hold. Schumacher’s domination of F1 caused transglobal viewing figures to ebb away and I don’t think that sport recovered from it.
There’s no excitement for the neutral watching the same teams win everything – as the Premier League will find out over the next three or four years.
come on guys, both codes are good for their on reasons, and both have their downsides.
daiesy
lovin’ it all
Agreed Daisey.
Anyroad, where’s Grasshopper? He’s usually first in doleing out the Leith Kisses in barroom natters like this one.
- Total Posts 438
With all the greatest of respect, Yquem21, you were the one that escalated matters.
There’s been a misunderstanding here, I think. My original post in this thread was meant as a light-hearted one, in line with the tone of the thread up to that point. It’s only when Euro, Bulwark and yourself started to debate those points that I responded.
I am debating with you about a factually based comment you made last night about duopoly on the flat. Your comment doesn’t hold water.
My point was about owners, not stables. A small owner has more chance of landing a major race over the sticks than on the flat; I don’t have the figures at hand (nor the time to do the research right now, sadly) but I’m pretty sure that there have been more individual owners of Graded race winners over jumps in the last five seasons than there have been of Group winners on the flat. Bulwark only used the last two seasons’ classics to illustrate his point, a paltry sample size and one from which, I am sure you’ll agree, no reasonable conclusions can be drawn.
Nicholls increased his prize money to over three million pounds in a sport which is supposed to be for the green wellied enthusiast and is not supposed to be about money. That’s a myth. Yet, the relative distribution of prize money amongst flat trainers in the last two years is less skewed.
I don’t think that anyone can bemoan the fact that National Hunt races, at least at the higher end of the ladder, are finally starting to attract increased prizemoney; thoise involved in the sport fully deserve their rewards.
While I agree that the current Nicholls hegemony isn’t necessarily a good thing, at least Messrs King, Pipe, Hobbs, O’Neill, etc have a chance against him. Any jumps trainer could, potentially, unearth the next star in France or Ireland. On the flat, the financial clout of Coolmore and Godolphin (and their affiliates) makes things far more difficult for the rest of the field.
Yours is a very good post, by the way; I agree with everything you’ve written, except for those parts discussed above.
Why would ANYONE with a passion for the horse be arguing about whether NH is better than the Flat or vice-versa? I certainly don’t. I love the exhibition of a thoroughbred being asked to compete in reckless feats of speed, stamina or leaping without the rider on board having the opportunity to press buttons and flick switches. It is a beautiful sport.
Those that grumble over the two racing types, I tend to believe are not as passionate as they would have hoped to be.
Well said, M.
I agree with Mdeering as well.
I think Septimus is a horse to follow again this year.
Are you denying that Coolmore and Godolphin have too much of a stranglehold on the main races?
Well lets have a quick look at 2007
2,000 guineas – No
1,000 guineas – No
Poulains – Coolmore – Astronomer Royal
Pouliches – No
Lockinge – No
Irish 2000 – No
Irish 1000 – No
Tatersalls Gold Cup – No
Coronation Cup – Coolmore – Scorpion
Oaks – No
Derby – No
Prix Du Jockey Club – No
Prix Du Diane- No
Prince Of Wales – No
St James Palace – Coolmore – Excellent Art
Queen Anne – Godolphin – Ramonti
Ascot Gold Cup – Coolmore – Yeats
Kings Stand – No
Golden Jubilee – No
Irish Derby – Coolmore – Soldier Of Fortune
Pretty Polly – Coolmore – Peeping Fawn
Irish Oaks – Coolmore Peeping Fawn
Eclipse – No
July Cup – No
Falmouth Stakes – No
Grand Prix Du Paris – No
King George – Coolmore – Dylan Thomas
Goodwood Cup – No
Sussex Stakes – Godolphin – Ramonti
Nassau Stakes – Coolmore – Peeping Fawn
International @ York – No
Yorkshire Oaks – Coolmore – Peeping Fawn
Nunthorpe – No
Phoenix Stakes – No
Moyglare No
Irish Champ – Coomore Dylan Thomas
Sprint Cup – No
Matron Stakes – No
Prix Du Moulin – No
St Leger – No
Irish St Leger – Coolmore – Yeats
QE2 – Godolphin – Ramonti
National Stakes – No
Prix Du L’opera – No
Prix Du L’abbaye – No
Prix jean Luc Lagardere – Godolphin – Rio De La Plata
Prix Marcel Boussac – No
Arc – Coolmore – Dylan Thomas
Champ Stakes – No
Dewhurst – No
Racing Post Trophy – Godolphin – Ibn KhaldunMay have missed a few but between those two stables by my quick count is 18 out of 50, 36% which isnt really an iron fisted grip on the flat season. Bearing in mind that they had three excpeptionally good horses in Ramonti, Dylan Thomas and Peeping fawn who got 10 big races between them, however, they are the two big breeding operations around which the current turf racing season is largely built, I see no problem in them winning big races as it is all part of the big cycle. The impact of the breeding, especially from coolmore is that well bred horses will end up in smaller stables that wont have cost and arm and a leg by comparison to what coolmore pay. Shamardal bred from Giants causeway cost 38,000 (if I remember correctly) and went to mark johnsons yard. Look at the impact of Galileo, Montjeu, Giants Causeway etc in their first few seasons at stud and they have thrown up plenty of group winners for smaller yards, on the flat and on the jumps.
You say that Racing is dominated by the Big Two yet Sir Michael Stoute is consistent as you like for challenging the British Trainers title, and Fabre is a dominant force in any big races he fancies and then you have all the John Oxxs, John Gosdens, Dermot Weld (who had a treble today) Jim Bolger (who apparently turned down the coolmore job because of his faith in his own establishment) Jeremy Noseda, Peter Chapple Hyam, Barry Hills, The Dunlops, Michael Bell, Kevin Predergast etc, etc. ALL CAPABLE OF GETTING A GROUP1 WINNER
If you are to talk about owners then you have Baron Von Ullman, The Agha Khan, The Wildenstiens, Princess Haya, Khalid Abdulla, Hamdan Al Maktoum, Gainsborough Stud, Cheveley Park Stud, The Queen, Hesmunds Stud, Highclere racing, Elite Racing, J Paul Reddam, Gary Tanaka etc, etc etc and plenty of smaller owners ALL CAPABLE OF GETTING A GROUP1 WINNER.
Also bear in mind that Godolphin havent really had a good season since 2004 and that Coolmore are into their first season without Danehill (last season too if you count the juveniles), how strong are they. It is not actually a case of no-one else being able to win a group one. Anyone can buy a decent horse.
Also bear in mind that AOB barely ever goes for handicaps with horses, Mullins Bay and Honolulu are the only ones I can think of from the last few years. Also coolmore can have a bad season as they themselves proved in 2004. AOB can only win races with what hes got, which is very hard when its group1 or nothing.
If your original post was supposed to be tongue in cheek then fair one, but you have actually defended it, which leads me to believe that you actually believe what you wrote. I personally like reading your posts on the jumps but I think that if you believe what you’ve written then your way off the mark.
You have asked:
Similarly, do you really believe that jump racing is less honest than the flat?
Answer : I certainly dont believe jumps racing is any more honest. To have asked this question you must believe that is the case.
And do you build up more of a rapport with flat horses than you do with their National Hunt counterparts?
Answer: Possibly yes, I have taken a shine to many jumps horses this season, not least Binocular and Masterminded, but I wouldnt say I like them anymore than Teofilo, Galileo, Refuse To Bend, Shamardal or George Washington, who in truth would just definitely edge ahead of them in my pecking order of favorite horses.
This thread has already drifted way off the topic it was supposed to be for, so dont want to turn it into one of those threads that just goes on forever.
Everyone has their own opinions but I cant help but think that if you do reallly dislike the flat for the reasons you have stated then I think that is really sad. I love the flat, and like the jumps when the flats not running, I certainly dont dislike it.Well said Bulwark. Glad you took the time.
I don’t really give a damn about so-called monopolies to be pefectly honest as i have no connection with the sport other than betting on it. Neither, at the end of the day, am i interested in what ‘teams’ (trainer/owner) take the prizes other than from a punting angle. Its the horses im interested in. The beautifull thoroughbred. The individuals. The better the animal, the happier i am. Mother nature is doing a fine job of taking care of those with big ideas of total domination anyway, which is also why i don’t fear monopolies in racing. Why would anyone have a problem with the powerfull operations in BOTH codes bringing quality animals to us? Is it REALLY boring? (someone made a ridiculous comparison with formula one!!) If so, which part of it? If you want romance, read a Mills and Boon novel!
Take the so-called ‘monopolies’ away and what are you left with?
As a racing fan this is just biting the hand that feeds us.
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