September 7, 2009 at 02:57 #12575
Sea The Stars has joined the list of all-time greats after his stunning Irish Champion Stakes win at Leopardstown, according to world-renowned ratings organisation Timeform – and there is the mouth-watering prospect of better to come.
Timeform have provisionally given John Oxx’s colt a huge rating of 140, which puts him alongside Shergar, Dancing Brave and Dubai Millennium as the third best horse since 1970.
Only Brigadier Gerard (144) and Mill Reef (141) have been allotted bigger ratings by Timeform since 1970.
Timeform’s Flat Editor Jamie Lynch commented: "Mastercraftsman (130) appears to have run his race in third, and there is also good reason for believing that Fame And Glory deserves a rating of 135, and to be bracketed in the same league as Sinndar (134), Galileo (134) and St Jovite (135).
"Therefore the form of the race looks solid, and we have given Sea The Stars a provisional rating of 140.
"Furthermore, Sea The Stars again didn’t look all out, leaving the impression there could be an even better performance in him if ever comes up against something able to test him fully.
"He should now be classed as one of the all-time greats."
Timeform Ratings Since 1970
Brigadier Gerard 144
Mill Reef 141
Sea The Stars 140
Dubai Millennium 140
Dancing Brave 140
Well i taught he would get at least 138 but 140 is more than i would have expect to be honest.
Is that a fair rating???? DiscussSeptember 7, 2009 at 03:07 #247652MDeeringMember
- Total Posts 1688
Fame And Glory deserves a rating of 135, and to be bracketed in the same league as Sinndar (134), Galileo (134) and St Jovite (135).
Hmm. Would you think Fame And Glory could go toe-to-toe with them?September 7, 2009 at 03:09 #247653
I not sure i have him 135 but afterall they gave New Approach a 133 and he won egg and spoon races last year.
135 does seem high enough for Fame+Glory tbh but i think the distances they were spread out was very visually impressive which leads to these ratingsSeptember 7, 2009 at 03:27 #247655
I’m surprised people pay attention to what these people think. Their ratings, after all, are based on opinions, which everybody has.September 7, 2009 at 03:32 #247656
Ah but its Timeform….
These people have single handly made sure that there can never be a horse better in National Hunt Racing that Flyingbolt nevermind Arkle.
In fairness though your point still stands.
Its a very high rating mind you….although it could be revised downwards as it is only provisional….but its interesting how they rate itSeptember 7, 2009 at 03:48 #247657
Ratings just don’t make sense. In essence a racehorse’s true ability can never be discovered unless he/she faces a rival 1lb either side of his/her capabilities.
In theory, Zarkava (and I say Zarkava because she was extremely unexposed for a horse of her quality with just 7 career runs – Sea The Stars has already had 8 and is due to have a 9th and maybe even 10th) could have potentially run to 150 had her ability been tested by better animals. Same goes for Sea Bird.
Unless a horse was ridiculously exposed and had the same level of form confirmed time and time again, ratings prove nothing but ambiguity.
They also don’t show the ease in which victory was attained. For example, to call Fame And Glory as good as Sinndar, Galileo, etc, is an utter joke.
In reality, Sea The Stars has absolutely demolished Fame And Glory by the same distance that Fame And Glory beat Mastercraftsman by (he was all out to beat him by that distance), but Fame And Glory’s rating is 5lbs higher than Mastercraftsman and Sea The Stars’ rating is only 5lbs higher than Fame And Glory.
I mean how is that fair?September 7, 2009 at 03:53 #247658AnonymousInactive
- Total Posts 17716
Imo, that’s a ridiculous rating, and seems to be built entirely around Mastercraftsman. Certainly nothing Fame And Glory had achieved previously puts him anywhere near a 135 horse.
For my money MC plainly didn’t see out the Leopardstown trip. In the International at York he was wilting in the closing stages, and on Saturday’s stiffer course and slower ground, he had run his race by the furlong pole, probably running 6/7 lbs below his previous run. Sure, STS showed improvement on that form in the irish Champion, but not the 10 lbs or so that a literal reading of the form implies.
Where do Timeform get these people from?September 7, 2009 at 03:58 #247659
I would have Fame and Glory 133…..and Sea Stars 138+…..Mastercraftsman maybe 130.
However in saying all that……Sea The Stars deserves to be a 138 horse and many wouldnt begrudge a 140 but F+G a 135 is a bit richSeptember 7, 2009 at 10:18 #247673seabirdParticipant
- Total Posts 2924
I find it strange that Fame And Glory has been deemed to have improved to a mark of 135 over a distance that is thought to be short of his optimum.
I would agree with Reet that it is perhaps wrong to assume that Mastercraftsman has run to his mark.
Sea The Stars has been given, by Timeform, a figure they think he deserves not one they can actually justify…..I wouldn’t argue with 135+++++.
ColinSeptember 7, 2009 at 10:40 #247675thedarkknightParticipant
- Total Posts 1299
I’m not sure I would give him a rating of 140 for the run based on what he achieved strictly at the weights, but I think Sea The Stars
that good – he had plenty in hand on Saturday and looked better than the result.
He is an extremely rare example of a horse that it is virtually impossible to pick holes in….September 7, 2009 at 12:44 #247686CavParticipant
- Total Posts 4825
140 rated through the third horse is too big imo. Mastercraftsman was being scrubbed along at the 2f pole and Heffernan had accepted defeat by the furlong pole and just rode out a finish. He’s a miler. 135 for a horse who’s an out and out 12 furlong horse is a bit on the high side as well.
137-138 feels a more correct assessment at this stage. Victory in a stamina laden Arc would probably deserve the ultimate accolade of a 140+.
Some horse though.September 7, 2009 at 13:31 #247694HimselfParticipant
- Total Posts 3777
Why start from 1970 ?
I think Sea The Stars’ Timeform rating of 140 is about right – at this stage.
Shergar beat his elders only once ( mainly non stayers ) – in the King George – and he has been allotted a figure of 140.
So what’s the big deal about Sea The Stars being allotted the same figure -he has defeated better horses than Shergar ever did.
Gambling Only Pays When You're WinningSeptember 7, 2009 at 14:27 #247696IanMember
- Total Posts 1415
Timeforms ratings have always been nonsensical. 140 Shergar and Dubai Millennium? Not a cat in hells chance were they that good.
We don’t actually know how good Sea The Stars is but at the moment I have him 133 +, Fame And Glory 127 and Mastercraftsman 123. Rip Van Winkle for what its worth 129.
I think my ratings are a far more accurate reflection of those horses abilities than Timeforms. What are they using 5lbs per length?September 7, 2009 at 14:32 #247697PrufrockParticipant
- Total Posts 2081
Lol.September 7, 2009 at 14:39 #247700towertoMember
- Total Posts 92
fame and glory better than galileo ?
aidan o brien must be laughingSeptember 7, 2009 at 15:30 #247702andyodMember
- Total Posts 4012
On the contrary, probably crying. The problem is we don’t know how good STS is. A mile, the best. A mile and a quarter, the best. A mile and a half, the best.Lets face it . Older horses, the best.He is so good that only Ballydoyle wants to take him on anymore.How often do you find a horse that nobody wants to race against? No matter what rating you give him the opposition have already given him the highest,they want no part of him.That must mean something.September 7, 2009 at 16:24 #247712
Surely nobody wants to take him on because Ballydoyle are already taking up one of the other spots for prize money and because they’ll just get completely smashed? I also ask the question; what is there to take him on with?
Quite frankly the only 2 things I can think of are Conduit in the Arc and Goldikova in the QE2.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.