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Timeform give Sea The Stars a 140 Rating provisionally

Home Forums Horse Racing Timeform give Sea The Stars a 140 Rating provisionally

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  • #12575
    wallace-no7
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    • Total Posts 1511

    Sea The Stars has joined the list of all-time greats after his stunning Irish Champion Stakes win at Leopardstown, according to world-renowned ratings organisation Timeform – and there is the mouth-watering prospect of better to come.

    Timeform have provisionally given John Oxx’s colt a huge rating of 140, which puts him alongside Shergar, Dancing Brave and Dubai Millennium as the third best horse since 1970.

    Only Brigadier Gerard (144) and Mill Reef (141) have been allotted bigger ratings by Timeform since 1970.

    Timeform’s Flat Editor Jamie Lynch commented: "Mastercraftsman (130) appears to have run his race in third, and there is also good reason for believing that Fame And Glory deserves a rating of 135, and to be bracketed in the same league as Sinndar (134), Galileo (134) and St Jovite (135).

    "Therefore the form of the race looks solid, and we have given Sea The Stars a provisional rating of 140.

    "Furthermore, Sea The Stars again didn’t look all out, leaving the impression there could be an even better performance in him if ever comes up against something able to test him fully.

    "He should now be classed as one of the all-time greats."

    Timeform Ratings Since 1970

    Brigadier Gerard 144
    Mill Reef 141
    Sea The Stars 140
    Dubai Millennium 140
    Dancing Brave 140
    Shergar 140

    Well i taught he would get at least 138 but 140 is more than i would have expect to be honest.

    Is that a fair rating???? Discuss

    http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing … 60909.html

    #247652
    MDeering
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    • Total Posts 1688

    Fame And Glory deserves a rating of 135, and to be bracketed in the same league as Sinndar (134), Galileo (134) and St Jovite (135).

    Hmm. Would you think Fame And Glory could go toe-to-toe with them?

    #247653
    wallace-no7
    Member
    • Total Posts 1511

    I not sure i have him 135 but afterall they gave New Approach a 133 and he won egg and spoon races last year.

    135 does seem high enough for Fame+Glory tbh but i think the distances they were spread out was very visually impressive which leads to these ratings

    #247655
    Zarkava
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    • Total Posts 4691

    I’m surprised people pay attention to what these people think. Their ratings, after all, are based on opinions, which everybody has.

    #247656
    wallace-no7
    Member
    • Total Posts 1511

    Ah but its Timeform….

    These people have single handly made sure that there can never be a horse better in National Hunt Racing that Flyingbolt nevermind Arkle.

    In fairness though your point still stands.

    Its a very high rating mind you….although it could be revised downwards as it is only provisional….but its interesting how they rate it

    #247657
    Zarkava
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    Ratings just don’t make sense. In essence a racehorse’s true ability can never be discovered unless he/she faces a rival 1lb either side of his/her capabilities.

    In theory, Zarkava (and I say Zarkava because she was extremely unexposed for a horse of her quality with just 7 career runs – Sea The Stars has already had 8 and is due to have a 9th and maybe even 10th) could have potentially run to 150 had her ability been tested by better animals. Same goes for Sea Bird.

    Unless a horse was ridiculously exposed and had the same level of form confirmed time and time again, ratings prove nothing but ambiguity.

    They also don’t show the ease in which victory was attained. For example, to call Fame And Glory as good as Sinndar, Galileo, etc, is an utter joke.

    In reality, Sea The Stars has absolutely demolished Fame And Glory by the same distance that Fame And Glory beat Mastercraftsman by (he was all out to beat him by that distance), but Fame And Glory’s rating is 5lbs higher than Mastercraftsman and Sea The Stars’ rating is only 5lbs higher than Fame And Glory.

    I mean how is that fair?

    #247658
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    Imo, that’s a ridiculous rating, and seems to be built entirely around Mastercraftsman. Certainly nothing Fame And Glory had achieved previously puts him anywhere near a 135 horse.
    For my money MC plainly didn’t see out the Leopardstown trip. In the International at York he was wilting in the closing stages, and on Saturday’s stiffer course and slower ground, he had run his race by the furlong pole, probably running 6/7 lbs below his previous run. Sure, STS showed improvement on that form in the irish Champion, but not the 10 lbs or so that a literal reading of the form implies.
    Where do Timeform get these people from? :lol:

    #247659
    wallace-no7
    Member
    • Total Posts 1511

    I would have Fame and Glory 133…..and Sea Stars 138+…..Mastercraftsman maybe 130.

    However in saying all that……Sea The Stars deserves to be a 138 horse and many wouldnt begrudge a 140 but F+G a 135 is a bit rich

    #247673
    seabird
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    • Total Posts 2924

    I find it strange that Fame And Glory has been deemed to have improved to a mark of 135 over a distance that is thought to be short of his optimum.

    I would agree with Reet that it is perhaps wrong to assume that Mastercraftsman has run to his mark.

    Sea The Stars has been given, by Timeform, a figure they think he deserves not one they can actually justify…..I wouldn’t argue with 135+++++.

    Colin

    #247675
    thedarkknight
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1299

    I’m not sure I would give him a rating of 140 for the run based on what he achieved strictly at the weights, but I think Sea The Stars

    is

    that good – he had plenty in hand on Saturday and looked better than the result.

    He is an extremely rare example of a horse that it is virtually impossible to pick holes in….

    #247686
    Cav
    Participant
    • Total Posts 4825

    140 rated through the third horse is too big imo. Mastercraftsman was being scrubbed along at the 2f pole and Heffernan had accepted defeat by the furlong pole and just rode out a finish. He’s a miler. 135 for a horse who’s an out and out 12 furlong horse is a bit on the high side as well.

    137-138 feels a more correct assessment at this stage. Victory in a stamina laden Arc would probably deserve the ultimate accolade of a 140+.

    Some horse though.

    #247694
    Himself
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3777

    Why start from 1970 ? :?

    I think Sea The Stars’ Timeform rating of 140 is about right – at this stage.

    Shergar beat his elders only once ( mainly non stayers ) – in the King George – and he has been allotted a figure of 140.

    So what’s the big deal about Sea The Stars being allotted the same figure -he has defeated better horses than Shergar ever did. :?

    Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning

    #247696
    Ian
    Member
    • Total Posts 1415

    Timeforms ratings have always been nonsensical. 140 Shergar and Dubai Millennium? Not a cat in hells chance were they that good.

    We don’t actually know how good Sea The Stars is but at the moment I have him 133 +, Fame And Glory 127 and Mastercraftsman 123. Rip Van Winkle for what its worth 129.

    I think my ratings are a far more accurate reflection of those horses abilities than Timeforms. What are they using 5lbs per length? :shock:

    #247697
    Prufrock
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    • Total Posts 2081

    Lol.

    #247700
    towerto
    Member
    • Total Posts 92

    fame and glory better than galileo ?
    aidan o brien must be laughing

    #247702
    andyod
    Member
    • Total Posts 4012

    On the contrary, probably crying. The problem is we don’t know how good STS is. A mile, the best. A mile and a quarter, the best. A mile and a half, the best.Lets face it . Older horses, the best.He is so good that only Ballydoyle wants to take him on anymore.How often do you find a horse that nobody wants to race against? No matter what rating you give him the opposition have already given him the highest,they want no part of him.That must mean something.

    #247712
    Zarkava
    Participant
    • Total Posts 4691

    Surely nobody wants to take him on because Ballydoyle are already taking up one of the other spots for prize money and because they’ll just get completely smashed? I also ask the question; what is there to take him on with?

    Quite frankly the only 2 things I can think of are Conduit in the Arc and Goldikova in the QE2.

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