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Champions Day does work, it’s just not often on the surface that some seem to believe all British Group 1’s should be run on. The Arc has a very similar record of being run on soft or even heavy ground, but we don’t hear anywhere near as much criticism of that… Possibly because the Arc is also recognised as “the best race in Europe”. Neither do we hear criticism of USA Breeders Cup being run on “firm”, Firm going is probably against the chances of just as many as very soft. Of course I’d rather it was anywhere between good-firm and good-soft and those who’ve said the round course should have better drainage are correct. But we can’t always stop it from becoming soft or heavy. Using waterproof covers would probably have been tried before now if it was possible.
As a spectacle I think it is best at the end of the season… And is better than what came before… Odd races on odd days, with the season fizzling out. The Champion Stakes etc would still have been run on soft ground, just not on Champions Day. Yes, there will be the odd established horse who’ve gone “over the top” for the year; but horses natural form progression also means more (three year olds in particular) will only be up to Championship standard by the end of the season. Having a “Champions” Day of 2023 on a date when a lot of the horses taking part are going to improve their form afterwards does not make sense to me. So if we are to have a Champions Day it needs to be at least mid September onwards and needs to fit in with the rest of the season; not only in Britain but Europe (the European Pattern) too. Too close to other important Group 1 races of the same type and fit in with the other established British Racing Festivals. With Arc Weekend, the Irish Champions Festival and Breeders Cup I suspect many would be criticising if Britain did not have a Champions Day. .
Moving it one week earlier might be a possibility, but being closer to Arc Weekend even fewer of the best horses would double up / turn up… Lessening the quality of both Champions Day and Arc Weekend. one week may not make much difference to the weather either.
Might be good to make a Champions Weekend of it, like other nations – with the best of Future Champions / Newmarket on the other day. I’d personally be in favour of moving Doncaster’s mile juvenile Group 1 to the same day too – but still remaining at Donny… However, some of those races would be moving closer to other European Group 1’s of the same age and distance – so will you’d even get permission to change?
I’ve got no problem with races being run on the jumps course when it may allow racing to take place at all. Suspect if Champions Day was abandoned / postponed TRFers would be saying “why not move it to the jumps track”? Surely if it saves the day then why not?… And it provides better ground, both for races on that course and – with fewer races run on it – the flat course too.
I’d be ok with the season finishing on Champions Day and with a break of a week or two before beginning again. Going through to October the next season.
Value Is EverythingAs I said last year, Champions Day needs to be compared to Irish Champions weekend, Arc weekend and the Breeders Cup. It is the poor relation of them all. Far less variety of racing, in particular no two year old races.
The Irish Champion Stakes is now a more prestigious race than its English counterpart. Coolmore certainly treat it as such. Their only runner at Ascot has in effect been a pacemaker on his previous starts (although, as pointed out on the relevant thread, he ought to like the ground and is perhaps overpriced).
Even though I did not like the decision to move the race from Ascot to Newmarket, I could at least understand the rationale. However, I don’t see how anyone can say it has improved the race.
Alan Potts noted earlier on the thread that when Champions Day was created there was confident talk of it attracting vast crowds. It has not even come close to getting those sort of figures and the television ratings are nothing out of the ordinary either. By those criteria and the slow decline of the feature race when compared to the Irish version, the day has to be seen as a failure.
Perhaps combining it into a Champions Weekend with Newmarket might help and be worth a try if possible.
On the issue of crowd numbers for Champions Day, Ascot long ago resorted to the method approved by marketing men – this is from the Ascot website page for tomorrow. It doesn’t name check a single horse, trainer or jockey, but:
After Party DJ Announced
The Ultimate Raceday now has the “ultimate” after party! Electronic duo Groove Armada will headline QIPCO British Champions Day when racing concludes.it does mention the most important performers on the day. What a shame that they have to wait around until that irritating racing stuff has finished.
Maybe Groove Amanda, whoever that might be is by In The Groove.
The things I want most in life are the things that I can't win.
“Finally, why did Ascot’s CoC need John Gosden for company while walking the course?
“What completely unbiased advice, which couldn’t possibly benefit any of his own entries, was Gosden offering?” I hear you ask, dear reader.”
I’m surprised no one has picked up on this.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Absence of a 2yo race probably consequence of Newmarket’s 2 day 2yo focused meeting the week before. Daresay it was a factor in negotiations around loss of the Champion Stakes. Combining with Newmarket is an interesting suggestion. The way things are going, I wouldn’t discount Chelmsford being touted as a viable alternative though!
“As I said last year, Champions Day needs to be compared to Irish Champions weekend, Arc weekend and the Breeders Cup. It is the poor relation of them all. Far less variety of racing, in particular no two year old races.
The Irish Champion Stakes is now a more prestigious race than its English counterpart”.
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Isn’t the whole point to Newmarket they’re future champions?
I really don’t see your claim of “less variety”, CAS.
You’ve got a Championship event/s over 6, 8, 10, 12 (restricted to fillies) and 15f. So sprint, mile, middle and stayers – every distance has a Championship event, which is surely the definition of a “Champions Day”.Fascinating question of which is “now more prestigious”, the British or Irish Champion Stakes?
How many years is “now”? Last year? two years? Three? Five?, Seven? Ten?…
And by what way to judge? Winner only’s rating? First three? First four?… And judged by the ratings going into the race or coming out or their ratings right now?
Or judging the “most prestigious” race by the quality of horse that ran and not necessarily winner or placed?Depends how you want to judge.
For me, if trying to find what is the “more prestigious” race then the quality of horse attracted to run in the race has a massive say. So I’d have to include what the ratings were going into the race of all the horses that ran. eg Last year Baaeed (with an OR of 135) was the long odds on fav and may have frightened a few away, connections chose the British Champion Stakes for this British Champion, Racing’s Superstar, not the Irish Champion Stakes… Second fav / second highest rated was Derby winner Adayar then rated 127. The pair below form and the actual winner Bay Bridge came into the race on only 120.
Whereas last year’s Irish Champion’s favourite / best OR rated horse was Vadeni at 123 with Mishriff second fav / second best rating of 121. Both below form and the actual winner was Luxembourg who was then rated only 117.Interesting that when the two winners subsequently met in the 2023 Tatts Gold Cup they were both rated 122, but when Luxembourg beat Bay Bridge 1/2 length the latter’s rating was (eventually) reduced to 121. So although right now the 2022 Irish Champion winner is rated 1 lb above the British Champion winner… When they were put into their respective Champion Stakes, not only did the British Champion Stakes have by far the best horse running in either race, but the second best was also far better and the actual winner went into the race 3 lbs better than the Irish Champion winner too.
Even this year you’ve got (if he’s not a non-runner) coming into the race Mostahdaf’s OR of 128 compared to Auguste Rodin 123.
Obviously very soft ground can put off some from running, but for me the British Champion is still a little more prestigious because on average it attracts a slightly better racehorse. However, the Irish Champion has certainly grown in prestige, is a brilliant race in its own right and not much behind.
Each to his own.
Value Is EverythingDoesn’t come as a surprise Ian..
Gosden once threatened to pull Kingman out of the Irish guineas unless they moved the handicap to the race after and not before..
Blackbeard to conquer the World
I would say Trawlerman, Free Wind and Mostahdaf are all best on as resilient a surface as possible and those three run in the three races switched to the “Inner Track” which actually has a stick reading of 7.5.
The trio are all trained by Gosden.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Word on the street is John has lent the clerk his hairdryer (never used) and a 12f extension lead.
The going on the “Inner Track” will start Good to Firm, burnt in placesBlackbeard to conquer the World
Am personally ok with just five Championship races, but it would be nice to see the handicap replaced to make it a sixth.
I’d like to see a 5f two year old group 1, but maybe the best place for that is Newmarket or somewhere completely different. Newbury or Donny?
These days there doesn’t seem many established 3yo+ sprinters who alternate between 5 an 6f… And some that do also need a sound surface to stay the “longer” trip. Ascot’s 6f on a softer surface is really for those effective between 6 and 7f and is partly why Kinross is favourite tomorrow. I doubt a 5f Group 1 sprint would deplete the 6f Group 1 much, if at all.
I know the l’Abbeye isn’t far gone, but sprinters more than any other type of racehorse are capable of reappearing quickly without it affecting form… And we currently have only two Group 1 races at 5f in Britain compared to four at 6f for 3yo+.
(I’ve included the Commonwealth Cup and Jubilee together as one, because the former is only for 3yo’s and latter 4yo+. Although it must be said both France and Ireland have just one 5f Group 1 race each, with none at 6f for 3yo+. French don’t seem that interested in sprints anyway).
So I propose a 3yo+ 5f Group 1 sprint to replace the handicap.
Maybe call the 5f race “The Minimum” and 6f “The Maximum Sprint”.…Then again, I’d love the King George at Goodwood to be upgraded to a Group 1.
Value Is EverythingChris Stickels has just been interviewed on Racing UK and said they have only had 2mm of rain in the last 24 hours, meaning that only Swinley Bottom is heavy on the proper flat course.
Given that they had up until 0800 this morning to decide, it looks like the decision to switch to the hurdles track was made prematurely.
It’s too late in the year, weather is diabolical for grade 1 horses to race on. They should bin it, or give it back to Newmarket where it should be, with the big field h’cap. Just look at the first two race winnes today, 9s and 40s. Ridiculous
And on a side note, £1000 prize for the ITV7 on Champions day is pathetic. If that is the best #ITVRacing can do, then they can keep itAP, Future Champions Day is a card of 2yo races, people want to see the old stalwarts like Further Flight winning the Jockey Club Cup, not a bunch of unknowns with only two races under their belt.
There are only two reasons anyone would have paid to see that meeting, the Cesarewitch and maybe City of Troy. That’s it. They wrecked Champions Day by giving it to Ascot, a difficult course to get to next door to Heathrow on a Saturday, and giving HQ a bunch of uninteresting Juvenile fodder
I went to Champions Day many times at NM, I certainly didnt go to watch unexposed 2yos. Let’s face it, all the HRA seem to want to do is hand all the top races to the Ascot/Windsor set, for their delectation. HQ gets the stuff they don’t want
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