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He’s run to 186 Friggo – not certain what Moscow ran to but I think it was the low 180’s since one of the big firms offered odds on a horse equalling Dessies 186 OR at any point last season
Master Minded emphatically did not run to 186, Martin. That OR was complete guesswork on the part of the official handicapper, and cannot be substantiated on any known form.
Here’s how it works for Phil Smith:
VPU wins a woefully sub-standard Champion Chase, but because it’s the Champion Chase, the handicapper feels compelled to award him a 169 rating – despite the fact that the actual form displayed is several pounds below that.
The official handicapper can’t be seen to look like an ar*se, so instead of revising VPU’s mark downwards to something more realistic following his cuffing by MM in the Game Spirit, he leaves him on the same mark, and (rightly) hikes Master Minded’s rating.
When Master Minded hammers VPU out of sight at Cheltenham, the official handicapper (again, not wanting to look like an ar*se for awarding VPU a patently inflated mark for his Champion Chase) decides he has to hike Master Minded into the mid-180’s – he needs to, in order to prop-up his original mark for VPU. He does this despite the fact that there were holes in the form of every one of VPU, Twist Magic and Tamaribleu going in the Champion Chase.
The OR of 186 cannot be substantiated on any relevant or solid piece of form, and was awarded for no better reason than Smith made a horlicks of rating the previous season’s Champion Chase.
I think you’ve summed that up pretty much spot on Grasshopper. Master Minded’s performance in the Champion Chase was awesome no doubt but the 186 is unrealistic and too high. I don’t have a rating for it but i’d guess around 179/180 which is stll pretty incredible. The rating maybe given a + due to the ease of his win but then you never know how much a horse can find off the bridle in such circumstances.
Yes Bos’… Master Minded will probably never quite reach Moscow in my eyes…even if he managed to win Wimbledon, the Open Golf and Eurovision. Seriously though…its almost impossible for a horse to reach legendary status without an almost equal champion as a contempory and Master Minded may suffer a bit on that score.
Moscow was particularly lucky in that he took over from a fine Champion in Flagship Uberalles had to prove himself superior to brilliant Azertyuiop and then had to fight off the precocious but established Well Chief when he was 11.
Best Mate’s reputation is suffering somewhat as the lack of a fitting adversory makes his achievements a bit more difficult to quantify. The loss of Jair Du Cochet was particularly tragic.
Hopefully something may materlialise to help guage MM, Petit Robin looks the only unknown threat out there. I would be confident also that Tidal Bay would run much better in the QM than today but probably won’t get the chance.Personally, If MM wins Eurovision I’ll be most impressed.
Not sure what his voice is like but he doesn’t want to overdo the singing…he may end up a little hoarse
I think MM had more in the tank. He wasn’t really asked a serious question. I don’t see any reason why he cannot become one of the all-time greats. Interesting point as to whether he will need to compete against better horses to push him to the top of the tree historically.
MM also jumped Flipper pretty skillfully!
Glad flipper is ok, he just seemed to go almost too quickly, even for him? He jumped the fence ok, but as you mentioned, Darren, he couldn’t get his hooves together on the other side!
I wouldn’t say Tidal Bay cannot win good races over 2 miles, it is just that any 2 miler is going to struggle to conquer MM.
However, a step up in trip does seem the natural option now for TB – I think he could run a big race in the King George.
MM is 4/6 for the Queen Mother – as others have said – if he turns up fit and well and jumps, how can he be beaten?
Zip
I wanted proof that Master Minded was a special horse and he went along way to cementing that view yesterday, from my perspective. We often get carried away by a single performance in this sport, so I wanted to see something special at Sandown to eliminate any suspicions that his Queen Mother romp was a one-off.
Surprised that some are insisting that Tidal Bay doesn’t have the pace for two mile races at the highest level. From what we saw yesterday, there’s the highest level and then there’s Master Minded, who’s not so much from the top rung of the ladder, but on top the roof!
To analyze TBs performance, you have to judge him on those that were in proximity to him. He was running a fine race against a dual Grade One two miler and former Tingle Creek winner in Twist Magic and I certainly feel that TB would’ve snatched second. Takeroc, who could be anything, was once again defeated by Howard Johnson’s horse.
Take all that into consideration and then look at the conditions of the race. A lot of people, including myself, were worried about the course and the proximity of the fences. I said that you’d know if he was in with a shout of winning at the half way stage by the way he was jumping and travelling. He was very slow over a number of fences, especially down the far side and dropped back from second to fourth over one obstacle, only to demonstrate his speed and tenacity between fences and get himself back into the race.
When you consider that the conditions of the race were against him, something I felt he could overcome if Master Minded’s Cheltenham win was an exaggeration, and the course was very much in favour of a horse like Twist Magic, it makes you appreciate how well he did.
He wouldn’t beat MM at Cheltenham, but he’d travel and jump better, so I’d expect him to be a clear second on the day, also bearing in the mind that the conditions of the race wouldn’t put him under pressure so early. He won’t go there now and I think Howard Johnson will favour the Ryanair if he doesn’t go to Kempton. I’d expect to see him in something like the Commercial Chase. It’s quite possible they’ll target a potential Gold Cup campaign next season.
When you look at what Moscow Flyer achieved, it’s hard to compare him and Master Minded at this moment in time. Like I said with Tidal Bay before Saturday, it’s about judging potential and Master Minded could easily add five or six Champion Chase wins to his name.
I just hope he doesn’t suffer the same criticism as Best Mate, where people will ask ‘What did he beat?’ We’ve seen a phenomenal talent like Kauto Star fail to win back to back Gold Cups, so regardless of competition, it takes a very talented horse to win numerous Championship races. The Tingle Creek is to the Chapion Chase, what the King George is to the Gold Cup, and Master Minded could also add to his victory in the race yesterday.
I think Tidal Bay, Twist Magic and Takeroc (who pulled 32L clear of the fourth) will all win decent prizes this season to bolster the reputation of the winner, who will more than likely scare the competition away in future events.
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So what has Master Minded got to do to prove himself the equal of the likes of Moscow Flyer? Does the fact that he has nothing of the calibre of Azertyuiop and Well Chief in direct opposition mean that he’s destined to remain a handicapping enigma, with no mark seemingly justifiable?
I am afraid that there is nothing worthy of a rating in excess of 160 at 2miles running in the 2m chase division other than MM.
That means there is nothing for MM to frighten away.
He is going to find it hard to be remembered as a great champion beating rubbish.That is a great shame.TB will prove a much better horse at 3m as his trainer has always maintained.He will be worthy of a rating in excess of 160 at that sort of trip.
Grasshopper is right about the handicapper,he is a lazy wotsit.
By the way,how lucky are some people??
Clive Smith must be owed a few favours by the AlmightySo what has Master Minded got to do to prove himself the equal of the likes of Moscow Flyer? Does the fact that he has nothing of the calibre of Azertyuiop and Well Chief in direct opposition mean that he’s destined to remain a handicapping enigma, with no mark seemingly justifiable?
He has to beat what is around with ease and by distances that on ratings make him the equal of the likes of Moscow Flyer. He was brilliant at Cheltenham but he’s only done it once so far.
Moscow Flyer is difficult to read in terms of rating him in that he wouldn’t generally win by 20 lengths but no matter how good an opponent was he’d up his game to a level good enough to beat them.
When you consider he’d do it on just about any type of track and any type of ground it makes you realise what a special horse he was.
For me Master Minded promising as he is still has to do a good bit more to prove the equal of Moscow Flyer.
Fair to say that MM will better his QM victory with next year’s performance in the championship event?
Zip
So what has Master Minded got to do to prove himself the equal of the likes of Moscow Flyer? Does the fact that he has nothing of the calibre of Azertyuiop and Well Chief in direct opposition mean that he’s destined to remain a handicapping enigma, with no mark seemingly justifiable?
To prove himself the equal of the likes of Moscow Flyer, Equitrack, all he has to do is run to the same rating – it’s that simple.
No-one is suggesting that he can’t, and no-one is being so precious that they are saying it’s impossible for him to progress beyond MF’s level. Indeed, all contributors on this thread have condeded that he is a very special talent indeed.
However, in rating Master Minded higher than Moscow Flyer after Cheltenham (when the Champion Chase form was patently questionable) Phil Smith denigrates the level of form that Moscow Flyer achieved in races which are bullet-proof from a form perspective. It is therefore encumbent upon anyone with an interest in historical ratings, and who believes Smith to be wrong, to say so.
IMO, the Champion Chase win was a handful of lbs shy of Moscow Flyer’s best ever form, with the Tingle Creek a further handful of lbs behind (I put him on 174 for yesterday’s effort).
Speaking only for myself, I’ll be quite happy to concede Master Minded is better than Moscow Flyer, as soon as I see some evidence for it. But until that happens, I feel compelled to defend MF’s record, in light of the official handicapper’s handling of MM’s rating.
The one thing Master Minded has in his favour which is more important to me than all the ratings from here to China was the way he did it. Forget what was behind him and watch the race again. Can anyone on this forum put their hands up and say they have ever seen anything like it……The way he skipped round that finial bend and took off was unbelievable….I still cant believe it……The last horse I saw that took on Cheltenham like that was Arkle…………unlike Denman for exampe he wasn’t wandering all over the shop, he flew up the hill like an arrow from Robin Hoods bow.
I don’t recall any other horse impressing like that…..not Moscow Flyer, Well Chief, Aztop, Badsworth or any other I have seen.
Granted one race doesn’t make an all time great but the potential is there and I can’t see anything to stop him repeating what he did last year……..Remember this horse is 5 years of age…..if he has improved God only knows what is yet to come.
It’s ok saying he has to run to a 186 but what the hell is a 186.? If he puts up another Arkle like performance in March winning by a distance and he could, then 186 is going to look very lowto me in comparison to the 212 Arkle was given.
If Denman had run away from Kauto Star at Chelters the way Master Minded did against his oppostion in the QMCC and they gave him a rating of 190 no one would have batted and eyelid would they?
These ratings are irrelevant really. The higher you rate a monkey the higher you have to rate an ape who comes along and kicks his butt…then you get a pure mess because you overrated the monkey to start with.
All I can say is master Minded looks a much better horse than Moscow but I’m damned if I will say he is until we get further proof.
As I mentioned earlier MM will find it difficult to grow in historical stature without a worthy rival but another QM and another Tingle Creek whilst performing at the same level will have him right up there with Moscow. I personally would have him as a 180ish horse right now. Remarkable for his age, even for a French bred.
Grasshopper I think your assessment of how MM came to get 186 is substantially correct and very perceptive.
Not in defence of Phil Smith but to give it some perspective, VPU came after a line of remarkeable Arkle/QM winners. Flagship Uberalles is a bit forgotten now given those that came soon after but he won Arkle & QM, much the best in both renewals and 3 Tingle Creek’s he had a very good record in the post Cheltenham festivals. Moscow Flyer was a top novice hurdler through to a top class Champion Hurdle prospect (I personally thought he would have won the Foot & Mouth Champion Hurdle), Arkle/QM double plus two Tingle Creeks and countless other Grade 1s. Remarkably, Azertyuiop was very nearly as good Moscow and Well Chief although he didnt win the QM was an exceptional Arkle winner who proved himself a high 170’s horse.
So along comes VPU he wins what was considered at the time a high class Arkle..Monets Garden 2nd, the pair well clear…Racing Demon, Foreman & Accordion Etoile amongst those beaten. He then wins his QM and they put him on 169. A high rating…too high in retrospect but a good 10lbs behind the Moscow/Az/Well Chief axis.
We had become used to stellar Arkle / QM performers and VPU was marked below them but not so far below he couldnt challenge them one day (ratings wise). That now looks too high but i dont think it was foolish at the time given recent history.Some excellent points made above, especially Grassopper and Shabby. Good stuff Shabby – i remember the build up for VPU’s Arkle, and it was billed beforehand as a vintage 2m novice chase division and the race of the Festival.
Whats the latest news on Well Chief? Probably too late, but i would love to see him win at Cheltenam.
Ruby – "He’s a machine"
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Tony – "He deserves his rating"
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QMCC Winning Time
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Good enough for me."Machine" – plenty of androids running in racing if we believe quotes like that.
Never really understood why "machine" is such high praise. Maybe it would suit a German Stayers Hurdle winner, but a flamboyant, exciting two miler like Masterminded? Not for me.
A few photos before the big race on Saturday.
TWIST MAGIC PRE-PARADE
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 … agic-1.jpgTIDAL BAY IN BOX W/ MASTER MINDED & TAKEROC WALKING PAST
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 … parade.jpgMASTER MINDED PARADE RING W/ FIEPES SHUFFLE
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 … minded.jpgTIDAL BAY PARADE RING W/ TAKEROC
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 … dalbay.jpg
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