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The Breeders Cup isn’t the be-all-and-end-all of anything Lastword. In fact, it can often be an anachronism with the farcical turf races last year an example of how unsuitable the event is as a so-called ‘world’ championship.
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Thank you for the reply Cormack and you do have a point. I never thought the BC a totaly fair event but when is it ever totaly fair? All I can say is it’s the best option we have for those who want to be called the best. My point is NOBODY should be saying they are the worlds best lest they meet in Dubai or the USA at the BC. Your racing schedules and type of racing totaly favors Euro runners so Europe can not be in the picure for a world event.
I honestly think that if our ‘enry wants Frankel to go down as a superstar he HAS to go to the BC and destroy their best offerings.
To take in a Juddmonte then pack him off to stud would be a damp squib.
If he is the best ever, prove it! This is why ‘The Brigadier’ is the superstar he is hailed as, because he PROVED he was world class against all-comers over two seasons.
It is absolutely great that he will possibly be campaigned as a 4yo according to Mr Cecil, so let’s see …
edit – it’s apparantly the QEII, not the Juddmonte. So he gets the rematch against CanfordThe Breeders Cup will never be the equivalent of a World Cup for turf races as many of the best animals will never appear in it. I, for one, would never advocate sending a great turf animal there without severe reservations. These include the fact that many American turf tracks are inside dirt tracks and amount to little more than flat oval dog tracks. Horses are too often on the turn, the draw has a ridiculously marked bias, and there is so much luck needed in running to avoid traffic problems. The likelihood of getting suitable ground underfoot also would be a concern.
You can continue with your somewhat laughable claims lastword but the official ratings will decide who is the best horse in the world, and that will be Frankel my friend. He has won every race, won all 4 Group 1 events, has immaculate breeding, and is already worth a fortune. He has little, if anything to prove, and is clearly the best horse in the world.
Where he ranks alongside other greats such as Nijinsky, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Sea Bird, Secretariat etc is a matter for debate. This should be a mouthwatering debate not one littered with ridiculous claims which frankly are as irksome as they are spurious and inaccurateLastword – European turf tracks offer a much fairer test than the vast majority of US tracks. To suggest that a horse needs to win in Dubai before it can be called the world’s best is simply nonsense.
You’re right Coggy. It’s also an enormous ask for our 3 year old champions to go stateside in late October or early November. At the start of a European classic campaign, no trainer would have designs on the Breeders Cup, it would almost always be an afterthought.
Added to that, we will almost always be meeting the top US stars under the conditions that they perform best i.e. tight, left handed, flat, dirt or usually firm turf ground, and the widespread use of Lasix, Bute or whatever chemicals that are permitted in the USA.
I’m not denigrating US champions, like Secretariat, Forego, Seattle Slew, Spectacular Bid, they are all superstars, but more is demanded of the Thoroughbred in Europe. Most of our champs would have competed on flat and undulating courses, both left and right handed or indeed straight up to 10F of Champion Stakes(until this season) and on vastly varying ground, all without chemical help.
It’s because of these variances that presumably hardly any US horses take us on over here. This is what makes horses like Frankel very special. His performance in the Guineas was spectacular, lead from the start an unrelenting gallop, straight mile, undulating track, uphill finish into a headwind. I suspect he would have been more than a match for any stateside horse you have this season or any season in the last 30 years.
Super horse. I said before the race the frankel needed to destroy CC to the live up the hype and he did. Great performance. No point trying to compare him to past greats, especially horses that run over different distances. Is just too hard to do and many excuses can always be made and most of them will have some claims. I dont buy into " he cant be called one of the greats if he doesnt win over 10f". That is plain stupid. Do you think usain bolt wont be called a great because he didnt win an olympic gold over 400m?? look at black caviar in Australia, she is horse of the year and is unquestionably the best horse in Australia. she is a sprinter. And whilst on BC, I’ve noticed the same thing happens to frankels rivals as to hers. It’s not her rivals that run a poor race, its that they get run into the ground and out of their comfort zone when trying to keep up. Go on you tube and watch her races and then watch frankels. Their rivals are always off the bit and hanging. Its what happens when a horse is taken out of its comfort zone.
Could you imagine a race over 1400 with Black Caviar V Frankel??
Well done frankel. amazing effort
Whoever it was who commented on my Frankel picture, thanks very much and you’re welcome to use it.
Am I alone in thinking the Canford/Frankel debate to be a mile wide of the mark? I mean no matter how off form Canford was supposed to be (And he clearly wasn’t that out of sorts anyway.)he was soundly thrashed. Aren’t some people missing the fact that Queally barely let his horse down? If he’d have raced properly you could have added several lengths to the winning distance for sure. Frankel is unbeaten in eight starts and I’ve yet to see him truly come off the bridle. When the mighty Sir Henry Cecil declares he’s the best he’s ever seen there’s no longer an argument IMO
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It seems way beyond apples and oranges to compare the games of Europe and the USA…There are many things I envy about your game and if you cannot say the same about America then you are not being honest. We breed for dirt and speed and in doing so have hurt our distance breeding. I won’t even say how disgusted I am about the scourge of drugs either. That being said, when we race, we actually race. We challenge from wire to wire.
You guys have an unwritten rule that all will plod along the first 2/3rds and then be all out. Well beyond apples and oranges. Add grass to the picture and it makes it even more ridiculous to compare. For more than 100 years our grass stars were often horses who couldn’t cut it on the dirt. Harsh but a reality. Grass is just not accepted as the end all here. Quite the opposite. Just look at our Horses of the Years.
This I can and will say. Take Secretariat, Kelso, Forego, Dr. Fager, Buckpasser, Damascus, Seattle Slew, Carry Back, Affirmed, Alydar, Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, Swaps, Nashua, Ruffian, Native Dancer, Citation, Man O` War, Seabiscut, John Henry, Northern Dancer, Rachel Alexandra or Ghostzapper and let them acclimate in YOUR house for the proper amont of time and you cannot find any horse who EVER raced in Europe who would take better than 4 out of 10 races against ANY of those. That would be on your grass. If you come here with your best list they do even worse.
Just keeping it real. It’s what I do
I think that I must be suffering from some form of self harm syndrome as I keep reading these posts from lastword !.
The last post is the most ridiculous yet. You obviously have absolutely no knowledge of European turf racing whatsoever and are little less than insulting the intelligence of the members of this forum, who are in the main reasoned, intelligent and tolerant of others views.
You cannot seriously believe that the likes of Sea Bird et al could not beat the majority of the horses you name in Europe on grass. Words fail me !I think that I must be suffering from some form of self harm syndrome as I keep reading these posts from lastword !.
The last post is the most ridiculous yet. You obviously have absolutely no knowledge of European turf racing whatsoever and are little less than insulting the intelligence of the members of this forum, who are in the main reasoned, intelligent and tolerant of others views.
You cannot seriously believe that the likes of Sea Bird et al could not beat the majority of the horses you name in Europe on grass. Words fail me !Nothing could beat Goldikova or Miesque
in the US
on grass lol
Remember that the BC is only like 30 years young as an event, so it is futile for lastword to make that argument really. Also, it is silly to argue that we should change our pattern to accommodate a BC tilt.Glad you mentioned about the use of drugs, lastword, because I didn’t like to. Or the fact that our horses, in general can run in both directions. I offered you a hand of friendship and you ignored it, so it seems all you want is an arguement, not a discussion. Haven’t got the time or the inclination.
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Quite. The emotive ranting of this trollish buffoon, who offers no shred of evidence to support his preferences and assertions, has made one doubly grateful for the unfailing courtesy and considerable knowledge of our regular US contributor, Miss Woodford.
That being said, when we race, we actually race. We challenge from wire to wire.
Frankel can do that.
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For Moe, I did see some kind words from somebody and if that was you I apologize for not responding directly. It’s a little hard to acknowledge friendship while being mauled by a frenzied mob lol. Again, NOT looking for a fight though I never ran from one either. Especially concerning horses, my area of expertise.
Anyone going to question him now? This was the post and I am being tarred and feathered for being someone who said yes, me. For the troll guy Pin Brain, who sees trolls wherever he is disagreed with, let me tell you something pal. I have forgotten more than you will ever learn about horses. So get a hold of yourself man.
As for Sea Bird and Mill Reef etc etc, Secretariat would run away and hide from ALL your top horses including Nijinsky II, IMO THE best you ever had. Put Sea the Stars in Secretariat’s Belmont and STS is at best 2nd by 25. Put Secretariat in Sea the Star’s Arc and Big Red beats him by 30! So lets at least get the "who is the best" argument settled. That IS the lastword on that subject.
Now if any of you can say Frankel still belongs in this discussion at all, I think you delusional. At least by what he’s done so far. THATS why I mentioned all the greats here in this country. So you guys would name your Sea Birds etc etc and finally realize how silly you all sound gushing over Frankel.Now I have heard Miss Woodford being complimented and the fact she is from the USA. That is splendid but lastword is here now and no offense to her but I keep it reaL. It’s what I do and I have the game to back it up. I can be a gentleman and agree to disagree or I can get down with the best and have a go at it. That depends on whoever engages and how they engage. Either way I will not apologize for my opinions nor dumb myself down for anyone. If you think you can step then by all means please bring it.
I do question Frankel, or his connections to be exact, over the idea that they’re just going to go to the QEII and then maybe, possibly, keep him in training next year. The horse didn’t even seem winded after the Sussex, why does he need 3 months rest? I don’t even care that they aren’t trying the Breeders Cup, but come on, give us something more. My prediction is that if he wins the QEII he’ll be retired as the "brilliant, precocious, undefeated champion" and have a full book. I was equally irritated at the connections of Candy Ride, Invasor, Ghostzapper et al.
Remember, there is an option to "Ignore User" in the Settings menu up there to the right.
I have to disagree with you Miss Woodford re the connections of Frankel. Sir Henry Cecil is the ultimate best custodian of a horse with regard to looking after the interests of his charges.
If Prince Adbullah was afraid to keep horses in training, then why is a Derby winner and Arc winner like Workforce still be in training ?
Lets just enjoy the worlds best horse together whilst we can
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