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Yes, some things do take too long to explain. Hence why i am still posting, 20 pages later.
Form is relatively reliable. Ratings are relatively reliable. However, when two horses (BG/Frankel), 40 years apart, are rated very closely be nearly every respected rating system, then i don’t know how you can derive at such a stance as you have. There are too many variables to thus make
definitive statement
s about who would win.
If rating systems and form were utterly reliable, then knowing winners of any given race would be very easy. However, as these ratings/form are not always indicative of what the outcome is, then we can extrapolate this and say we cannot use this form/rating system to give an
absolute
to a question about horses 40 years apart.
You don’t take NO for an answer J17 do you? I said many pages ago that I would not be explaining, but you keep on keeping on repeating your need for an explanation. I’ve said it would take too long. Should I really take many, many hours explaining my one opinion just for your benifit J17? Do you own my time?
Because of your nagging I’ve qualified "proven" to mean "proven beyond reasonable doubt" and then because you were not satisfied with that, qualified "beyond reasonable doubt" in the context of this situation as "at least 90% sure in my own mind"… which you still found fault with… And despite me calling it as "at least 90%" you still misrepresent my opinion. How can "at least 90%" mean
"a definitive statement"?
How can it mean "absolute"? Even if in court something is "proven beyond reasonable doubt", some people may disagree with it and some verdicts are even overturned on appeal. So please do not misrepresent my opinion again J17!Any explanation I give would need to go in to how ratings are established, how different aspects of form affect results, why form is not reliable every time but how over all form is, improvements in both training methods and food, how modern day ratings should be rated higher, why Dancing Brave’s official rating is too generous, I’d need to go through all the different "Great" horses with a write up on form of all of them, how Frankel’s rating is near nigh unquestionable. With posts on all of the above… and all just for your benifit.
It would take TOO LONG!But if you’d like to choose one or two aspects of the above you’ve got a particular problem with J17 (and be a bit nicer about it)… I’ll consider explaining as long as you’re not in any hurry for an answer. EDIT: Just seen your above post J17, forget it, I am not doing anything for you!
Value Is EverythingYou don’t take NO for an answer J17 do you? I said many pages ago that I would not be explaining, but you keep on keeping on repeating your need for an explanation. I’ve said it would take too long. Should I really take many, many hours explaining my one opinion just for your benifit J17? Do you own my time?
The above reads as a cop out. If you state something so collosal, you better give some reasoning/justification behind it, otherwise it is simply an empty statement with no merit at all.
Considering how many hours you’ve spent in this thread replying, i’d suggest you do have the time to explain. Perhaps less time self-advertising and constantly tring to imply your own greatness through repetitive pathetic attempts to be condescending and more time actually explaining this "thesis".
Because of your nagging I’ve qualified "proven" to mean "proven beyond reasonable doubt" and then because you were not satisfied with that, qualified "beyond reasonable doubt" in the context of this situation as "at least 90% sure in my own mind"… which you still found fault with… And despite me calling it as "at least 90%" you still misrepresent my opinion. How can "at least 90%" mean
"a definitive statement"?
How can it mean "absolute"? Even if in court something is "proven beyond reasonable doubt", some people may disagree with it and some verdicts are even overturned on appeal. So please do not misrepresent my opinion again J17!Nagging … you said definitively at first he is the best horse of all time. You yourself then convienently moved onto "Beyond reasonable doubt" (Of which there is of course doubt), and the finally percentile. Not only is 90% a somewhat abritary and worthles figure without an explanation, it is also not beyond reasonable doubt.
No one is misrepresenting your opinion Ginge. Your opinion is currently without concrete reasoning and the wording changes when it suits you.
Any explanation I give would need to go in to how ratings are established, how different aspects of form affect results, why form is not reliable every time but how over all form is, improvements in both training methods and food, how modern day ratings should be rated higher, why Dancing Brave’s official rating is too generous, I’d need to go through all the different "Great" horses with a write up on form of all of them, how Frankel’s rating is near nigh unquestionable. With posts on all of the above… and all just for your benifit.
It would take TOO LONG!The above would all be required to even begin to think about the question posed. Even then, the data is too incomplete, and the variables discussed too hard to truely measure (Such as feed, training methods etc). I don’t buy the fact that it would take too long, given the amount of time you spend on here. If you don’t want to do it, say so, but don’t spout poor excuses because it is very apparent you do have the time.
Also, what did you expect? You make a whacky conclusion up, and expect people to simply believe it without detailed reasoning. Do you think we are idiots? It is absolutely unbelieveable how you think anyone should take such a statement seriously without any concrete reasoning given with it. Either you think we are all ******* stupid, or you’re full of ******, or likely both.
"1) Come up with an idea
2) Say it without any concrete evidence/reasoning
3) They will believe it because other people love the horse, people think i am clever, and some posters can’t think for themselves!
4) Look clever!"If you don’t have the time, then fine. But don’t whine when someone calls you out on it.
But if you’d like to choose one or two aspects of the above you’ve got a particular problem with J17 (and be a bit nicer about it)… I’ll consider explaining as long as you’re not in any hurry for an answer. EDIT: Just seen your above post J17, forget it, I am not doing anything for you!
So be it. I’ve asked for answers/reasoning for about 10 pages, and i’ve yet to recieve much worth reading, so i can’t say i was expecting anything at this point.
J17 – what a shame your arguement has got personal and nasty.
Can’t quite get it myself. You seem to be saying on one hand that Frankel is the best horse you have ever seen or will probably ever see but then you spend the next 20 pages arguing that he is not the best there has ever been because there are too many variables involved to prove it.
If there are too may variables to prove it then surely you yourself cannot say he is the best you have seen as, by your own reasoning, there is no way of knowing that. In other words, using your reasoning, you may have seen a better horse and not known it.
All we know for certain is that most of the ratings guys who have been doing this a long time have Frankel at the top of the all time ratings. Most people who have been involved in racing a long time have him at the top. It can only be based on opinions but the opinion of most is that he is the best.
I can’t see how your analogy with Usain Bolt works as track surfaces, equipment, diet and things have changed over the years so surely there are too many variables here as well?
Anyway forget form. Forget ratings. Forget what anyone says. If you want proof that Frankel is the best there has ever been go to http://www.frankel.juddmonte.com and watch his 13 races. You will see something that has never been seen before and will never be seen again. You won’t see a better action in any footage of any other racehorse there has ever been. It was obvious from the early days of his 2 year old career and is ever more obvious today. There has never been one like this!
All in my opinion of course!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Will the International, the Irish Champion Stakes and the Champion Stakes at Ascot become the new Triple Crown of racing someday?
Surely only a matter of time Andy.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
J17,
I may remind you it was not me who first used the expression "The greatest horse of all time". I was just responding to TAPK’s post (a bit of banta between two old pals who like a good arguement)…A horse mentally and physically ready to tackle the worlds greatest test of a flat thoroughbred racehorse,The Arc! Mincing about anywhere else just wont wash the indelible stain thats going to be left in the Underpants of those Shittin themselves about him tacklin the Big one against the big boys who will get the 11/2m trip that seperates the good from the Great from what will be without any doubt
The Greatest horse of all time
………if he wins!It could well be that lady luck decides where this horse sits in world rankings but thats part of the game.Backs to the walls time boys,now lets see you come out fightin! Joni,you better get your Persil out mate!
Frankel has already proven he’s the "The Greatest horse of all time" Gord. No, "lady luck" should not tell us who the best racehorse of all time is. The form book should do that.
We all know TAPK is prone to exaggeration. So I responded with a small exaggeration of my own, with "proven" instead of "proven beyond reasonable doubt". Something that I put you right early in our conversation. What do you think it would look like if instead of the above quote I’d said "actually Gord, I am around 90% certain in my own mind Frankel is the "Greatest horse of all time, at least until someone better comes along"? You yourself have criticised that comment, "why 90%" etc. What the …. TAPK would’ve made of it.
He’d have quite rightly torn me to shreds.It is puzzling why you picked on me and not TAPK to justify his words that Frankel would be
"without any doubt The Greatest horse of all time………if he wins"
(the Arc)!
Sorry TAPK, hope I haven’t got you in trouble with J17.
I’m sorry you found the word "proven" so inflammable, but once I’d qualified it you should not keep making out my opinion to be difinative. And once someone shows he/she doesn’t want to expand on reasoning, then accept his/her decision. Especially if giving a valid reason not to do so. ie Time constraints. You yourself recognise it would take a very long time to answer. Of course it is up to you if you want to belive Frankel has "proven beyond reasonable doubt" he’s the "Greatest horse of all time". And of course without me explaining you’re less inclined to believe it. (Although why you’d take my thoughts in to account I don’t know).
In the Race Of The Season thread J17 (the last time I believe we "spoke") you described me as "one of the more personable characters on this forum". Now it seems I am the anti-christ, and all because I did not write a 10 page essay explaining one word ("proven") on your behest.
Can we please just laugh it off and forget about it mate?
Value Is EverythingSorry TAPK, hope I haven’t got you in trouble with J17.
Thread of the year for me this,Joni conducting those of us orchestrating doom and gloom with aplomb and a definate division of opinion regarding
Frankel
. I stand by my statement that had ‘Frankel’ contested the Arc and won he’d have been rightly awarded
The Greatest Racehorse of all time
award as he’d have won over 1m a 11/4m and 11/2m in Group 1 races,races recognised on a Worldwide basis as a thorough test of a………….Thoroughbred!
Unfortunately we’ll never know the answer to whether the Freak would have stayed a 11/2m off a searching pace and sadly that one criticism will hang over him forever.Begs the Question of ‘Has he been given too much of the Kid Glove treatment’?
By the way Ginge,you’ve met your match with this ‘J17star’ character,I’m enjoying your exchanges and its still 50/50 as to who is actually winning! Dont you go backing down to the new boy ya hear Ginge mate! J17 – what a shame your arguement has got personal and nasty.
Perhaps, but GingerTipsters constant condescening tone with the re-occuring implication that he understands form, yet it’s to complicated to "explain" is friendly? Of course you probably wouldn’t recognise this, given where ever one of you tends to go, the other isn’t far behind.
Can’t quite get it myself. You seem to be saying on one hand that Frankel is the best horse you have ever seen or will probably ever see but then you spend the next 20 pages arguing that he is not the best there has ever been because there are too many variables involved to prove it.
I believe Frankel is the best horse i have seen, and i think i may feel like that in 50-60 years. Of course this is an opinion, and certainly not something i would say is definite. I cannot say in absolutes Frankel is the best i’ve seen. There is a difference between declaring relative absolutes, and simply making an educated guess.
For the greatest of all time … i have no real interest, or opinion, on who that title should go to. Far too many variables to even begin understanding and answering that question. Very very few people would be able to tackle such a question (And im afriad Ginertipster probably isn’t one), and even then, no answer can absolutely accurate.
If there are too may variables to prove it then surely you yourself cannot say he is the best you have seen as, by your own reasoning, there is no way of knowing that. In other words, using your reasoning, you may have seen a better horse and not known it.
Again, you seem to be confusing two different assessments. I am not trying to prove he is the best i have seen, or the best that has been. I believe he is the best i have seen, but i cannot reasonably proove this beyond reasonable doubt.
All we know for certain is that most of the ratings guys who have been doing this a long time have Frankel at the top of the all time ratings. Most people who have been involved in racing a long time have him at the top. It can only be based on opinions but the opinion of most is that he is the best.
Frankel is close to the top of all ratings available, yes. However the figures have several horses very closely rated, and as such, no definive "best" exists. An opinion is fine, and if you believe he is one of the best horses of all time, that is a worthwhile opinion (Though stating he is the best is nonsensical since i doubt you are nearly educated to suggest that, as none of us are).
I can’t see how your analogy with Usain Bolt works as track surfaces, equipment, diet and things have changed over the years so surely there are too many variables here as well?
The analogy with Bolt was to highlight how comparing horses with horses is much harder than comparing athletes with athletes in certain disciplines is. Of course variables have changed in sprinting, however it is generally much easier to compare 100M sprinters than it is horses many years apart. We know Bolt would beat any sprinter gone before. Sprinting is largely a time based discipline, with few other variables and no tactics. Who is the fastest is ultimately by far the best way of measuring sprinter vs sprinter from different eras. Yes many things have improved in developing sprinters (track, training methods, diet, the race start, coaching, genetics) but that does not particularly matter ; we can say Bolt is a faster (and thus better) sprinter than Greene, Boldon, Lewis, Johnson etc. We do not have these luxuries in horse racing, given races are often tactical, so times do not give an accurate appraisal of a horses max ability, and the objective of a race is not to run as fast as you can. We also have no sectionals to compare. If BG and Frankel ran over a mile, while we’d be able to make educated assumptions on what might happen, we certainly would not be able to guarantee the outcome. In Sprinting, if they run to form, we do know the outcome. If BG/Frankel both ran to max form, we still wouldn’t know absolutely accurately, who would beat who.
Anyway forget form. Forget ratings. Forget what anyone says. If you want proof that Frankel is the best there has ever been go to http://www.frankel.juddmonte.com and watch his 13 races. You will see something that has never been seen before and will never be seen again. You won’t see a better action in any footage of any other racehorse there has ever been. It was obvious from the early days of his 2 year old career and is ever more obvious today. There has never been one like this!
All in my opinion of course!
I love Frankel. My favourite race horse. Of course the above is an idealistic and illogical way of asserting he is the best.
J17,
I may remind you it was not me who first used the expression "The greatest horse of all time". I was just responding to TAPK’s post (a bit of banta between two old pals who like a good arguement)…And yet you ran with the argument, and reference that phrase again. I sense you are trying to get out of jail, but cannot find the key.
We all know TAPK is prone to exaggeration. So I responded with a small exaggeration of my own, with "proven" instead of "proven beyond reasonable doubt". Something that I put you right early in our conversation. What do you think it would look like if instead of the above quote I’d said "actually Gord, I am around 90% certain in my own mind Frankel is the "Greatest horse of all time, at least until someone better comes along"? You yourself have criticised that comment, "why 90%" etc. What the …. TAPK would’ve made of it.
He’d have quite rightly torn me to shreds.You haven’t proven beyond reasonable doubt.
It is puzzling why you picked on me and not TAPK to justify his words that Frankel would be
"without any doubt The Greatest horse of all time………if he wins"
(the Arc)!
Sorry TAPK, hope I haven’t got you in trouble with J17.
If i were walking on a bridge with TAPK, and he jumped in the river, i wouldn’t be suprised. TAPK seems like an interesting and whacky character, with some excellent points, and some … i will dismiss. Yet i fail to see what TAPK has to with this and what this is supposed to change?
All you’re doing is moving further clear of what we are debating.
I’m sorry you found the word "proven" so inflammable, but once I’d qualified it you should not keep making out my opinion to be difinative. And once someone shows he/she doesn’t want to expand on reasoning, then accept his/her decision. Especially if giving a valid reason not to do so. ie Time constraints. You yourself recognise it would take a very long time to answer. Of course it is up to you if you want to belive Frankel has "proven beyond reasonable doubt" he’s the "Greatest horse of all time". And of course without me explaining you’re less inclined to believe it. (Although why you’d take my thoughts in to account I don’t know).
If you create a thesis, and don’t provide reasoning, expect to be called out. Deal with it.
In the Race Of The Season thread J17 (the last time I believe we "spoke") you described me as "one of the more personable characters on this forum". Now it seems I am the anti-christ, and all because I did not write a 10 page essay explaining one word ("proven") on your behest.
Can we please just laugh it off and forget about it mate?
lol i will take what you say in other threads on the merit of the content. I think you’ve dug yourself a ludicrious hole in this thread and you’ve reached a point your completely evading the topic and getting defensive.
However, this doesn’t mean i am going to dismiss what you say elsewhere, and still expect to read many useful and interesting posts from you in the future.
By the way Ginge,you’ve met your match with this ‘J17star’ character,I’m enjoying your exchanges and its still 50/50 as to who is actually winning!
Dont you go backing down to the new boy ya hear Ginge mate! Don’t you think it’s a bit like watching Rainman verses Spock?
Some of their threads make my head hurt.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I love Frankel. My favourite race horse. Of course the above is an idealistic and illogical way of asserting he is the best.
Absolutely correct Spock old boy. But it is still obvious none the less!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
…I really hope now he doesn’t stay in training as a 5 yo, despite wanting so initially. I fear it would be another repeat of Newbury, Ascot, Goodwood, York, Ascot…. and that at some point there might even be a ‘boo’ or two going around… which wouldn’t do…
he would be like a hit record that you have played just too many times….He still doesn’t appear on my horizon. To me, they have used him like an airbrushed model, whose only side we are permitted to see must always be the best one – nothing less will do. I prefer something a little roughened up, which is why he wouldn’t be in my top 20. It has nothing to do with form – obviously – which is just as well as some of us have been accused so patronisingly of knowing nothing about the subject and being illiterate regarding it’s interpretation.
Frankel does not live with Goldikova, for me. I cite her as another in the 7-10.5 bracket… He cannot, because he’s never been allowed to although he’s a lovely looking horse and it’s not his fault.
She won the races he’s never been entered in, the races that mean so much today…. he can be computed to whatever you like above her, call it 15, 20lbs, it doesn’t matter… she won 3 Breeder’s Cup’s which as far as I’m concerned is more than anything he’s ever achieved, or will.Despite the attempts at brainwashing, the almost fundamentalist fervour that surrounds him, the seemingly desperate attempts to get everyone onboard that he must be rated pound for pound above any other – it just doesn’t grab me….
I don’t think I do so outside of this thread, but I’d be happy to stand alone on that…
… I look at today’s Arc winner in Germany – she’s fallible yet dogged, her record is impure, she doesn’t always do it the way you hope, I absolutely love her to bits, there’s simply no comparison….
The Frankel ‘story’ is dull, it’s sad but true. Even if he wins the Arc or the BC it’s too late now. Business put ahead of sport and thrills and risk and fun. Such a shame, such a wasted opportunity
I’m amazed Frankel leaves so many cold, maybe it’s because he’s hardly ever been a backable price.
Punters build affection for a horse through being able to cheer them on having backed them.
Just a thought.
…I really hope now he doesn’t stay in training as a 5 yo, despite wanting so initially. I fear it would be another repeat of Newbury, Ascot, Goodwood, York, Ascot…. and that at some point there might even be a ‘boo’ or two going around… which wouldn’t do…
he would be like a hit record that you have played just too many times….He still doesn’t appear on my horizon. To me, they have used him like an airbrushed model, whose only side we are permitted to see must always be the best one – nothing less will do. I prefer something a little roughened up, which is why he wouldn’t be in my top 20. It has nothing to do with form – obviously – which is just as well as some of us have been accused so patronisingly of knowing nothing about the subject and being illiterate regarding it’s interpretation.
Frankel does not live with Goldikova, for me. I cite her as another in the 7-10.5 bracket… He cannot, because he’s never been allowed to although he’s a lovely looking horse and it’s not his fault.
She won the races he’s never been entered in, the races that mean so much today…. he can be computed to whatever you like above her, call it 15, 20lbs, it doesn’t matter… she won 3 Breeder’s Cup’s which as far as I’m concerned is more than anything he’s ever achieved, or will.Despite the attempts at brainwashing, the almost fundamentalist fervour that surrounds him, the seemingly desperate attempts to get everyone onboard that he must be rated pound for pound above any other – it just doesn’t grab me….
I don’t think I do so outside of this thread, but I’d be happy to stand alone on that…
… I look at today’s Arc winner in Germany – she’s fallible yet dogged, her record is impure, she doesn’t always do it the way you hope, I absolutely love her to bits, there’s simply no comparison….
You hope Frankel doesn’t run as 5 year old because you’re afraid he’d run in the same races again, then you go on to laud Goldikova who ran in the same races year after year!
You may as well go the whle hog and berate the connections of Kauto Star for only running in the Betfair, King George and Gold Cup year after year.
Perfection leaves her cold Andrew. It is why she and me could just never work.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Its my apology not yours – was a stupid comment to make and I retract it.
But regarding the Champion, I respectfully disagree. The Arc winners list will always be a "Who’s Who", and the Champion Stakes will always be a "Who Else". Not running in The Arc certainly doesn’t detract from Frankel’s marvellous career, but winning it would certainly have added something.
I did think it was a very un-PC thing to say!
I take your point and agree to an extent but am very hopeful (as I am sure Ascot are) that the Champion list will get better every year. As I say it has a huge purse and with 10f becoming the ever popular middle distance trip there should be plenty of enticement for connections. Cirrhus Des Aigles last year followed by Frankel this would not be a bad start!
I’m afraid your hope is misplaced – The Arc has decades of top class horses behind it. The Champion Stakes has David Junior and Twice Over, twice. No comparison I’m afraid, and a few quid won’t change that, for at least 20 years.
If i were walking on a bridge with TAPK, and he jumped in the river, i wouldn’t be suprised.
Funny yo should say that ‘J’,I remember when I was a teenager playing football one day and this Girl I fancied ran onto the pitch and pinched our ball,she ran off and stopped on the bridge over a river,she threatened to throw the ball into the River showing off in front of her mates so I picked her up and jumped onto the parapet of the bridge and just took off! Hindsight is a wonderful thing and if I’d known I would swallow the filth in that river and be physically sick for a week later I probably wouldn’t have done it.The best thing to come out of it was she became my Girlfriend for the next 2 years,we lost touch for over 20 yrs then bumped into each other.To this day she says it was the best chat up line she’s experienced and we remain friends still.You are obviously a good judge of character!
Ginge is not a confrontational character and would certainly not intend to offend you.I wouldn’t think twice about it myself though!
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