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Was a very thought provoking article by Chris McGrath; have to admit to my ignorance when it came to the naming of the horse, but realising that the horse was named after an American trainer it made sense for the owner to want a Breeders Cup win for him. I’ll be amazed if that isn’t why he’s going to be kept in training ar 4 and I’m looking forward to it already.
But can a horse be
too
talented?
I don’t mean this in a negative way … but, more like, from a perspective where the trainers and owners come to a crossroads of where to run their equine superstars.
For example, take Dancing Brave … a horse regarded by many (myself included) who possessed the potential talent to run from 6F to 12F. But because he effectively proved himself so good over 12 furlongs, we seem to forget how good he could’ve been back over a mile. After all, he did win a strong 2000 Guineas in fine style but never got the chance to show what he could do at that distance again and so the thought goes begging.
Let’s say, if he didn’t stay 12 furlongs, then perhaps we can only assume he’d have been a champion miler just like Frankel.Regardless of what Frankel could or might do over 6, 10 or 12 furlongs is irrelevant to me at the moment. I’m just enjoying him as a phenomenon at a mile
Iconoclasm is in general an unhealthy pursuit: a refuge sought by the embittered cynic, from which he in his od old age reflects on an unfulfilled, inconsequential and discontented life.
This self-hate and dissatisfaction manifesting itself as a torrent of vitriolic abuse – born of envy – aimed illogically and undeservedly at those who through honest endeavour, capability and hard work have dragged themselves from the slough of mediocrity into the fertile garden of fulfillment, consequence and contentment.
An admirable Eden…and aspirational
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society’s pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he’s inIt’s alright Andy, you’re only bleeding
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The media does a lot of the public’s thinking for it, but not all of the "broader audience" are as gullible as McGrath obviously believes. Many are capable of sound, rational, interpretation and logical thought; the majority of those who have expressed an opinion in this thread seem to believe that Frankel is something very special indeed and I’d be more inclined to agree with them …
You make a good point, which reiterates something important said by Nick Luck and James Willoughby after the catastrophic falls in the second race at Goodwood.
Hype is one aspect of this. There’s so much of it that we’ve all become cynical and emptied of feeling about most races we see.
The creeping tendency to assume that the Lowest Common Denominator of the viewing public is every bit as low as the
meja
like to pretend it is extends into many areas. They do this in order to exercise control, and focus us on the things their paymasters the advertisers want us to spend time (and therefore money) thinking about.
Thus the absurd
meja
concentration on Fu’bol, which the bookies have discovered to be a sounder medium to rip off the mugs than Horse Racing, where even moderately successful punters are getting their accounts closed left, right and centre.
Then there’s the conspiracy to treat the viewing public like children. We had a good example of this yesterday with the horrendous accident in the 2nd at Goodwood. RUK were respectful enough to replay the incident again, to show those anxiously waiting exactly what had happened, and how. They treated subscribers like responsible adults.
On the other hand, I’m told that C4 chose to put its hands over the childrens’ eyes by not replaying the incident ("for obvious reasons") which makes for a particularly condescending form of censorship. Unless C4 seriously believes people get off on seeing injuries to horse and jockey they are doing its public a huge disservice in behaving towards it in this way.
The cynics about Frankel – whether motivated by personal obsessions or not – know what’s going on in the
meja
, and they have my sympathy at least. It is dratted hard to sort out true from false gold: but when the evidence of our own educated senses is added to unusually bold statements from both trainer and owner, neither of them bound body and soul to the hype machine, than I feel that even the cynics need to listen with respect.
Life is about opinions and one man yet to be convinced that Frankel is Pegasus is Tom Segal writing in today’s RP.
He crabs the form:-
1. 2000 Guineas – won a substandard event whilst enjoying a conditioning advantage over much of the opposition.
2. Royal Ascot- scrambled home in the face of odd tactics
3. Goodwood- enjoyed a time trial in a 4 horse race during which Canford Cliffs was miles below his best
Tom’s opinions- not necessarily mine.
On the other hand, I’m told that C4 chose to put its hands over the childrens’ eyes by not replaying the incident ("for obvious reasons") which makes for a particularly condescending form of censorship. Unless C4 seriously believes people get off on seeing injuries to horse and jockey they are doing its public a huge disservice in behaving towards it in this way.
I’d say that was just them doing their bit for racing – you only need to look at the Grand National and the furore with the tarpaulins and the week long debate afterwards and compare it to the old reaction (when parts of the fence were dolled off), you still had the tarpaulins and the dead horses but it wasn’t shoved down your throat.
I don’t think racing needs disection of falls, particularly those that led to fatal injuries to horses and serious injuries to jockeys not least on the only day of the week where racing gets exposure on national television.
Iconoclasm is in general an unhealthy pursuit: a refuge sought by the embittered cynic, from which he in his od old age reflects on an unfulfilled, inconsequential and discontented life.
This self-hate and dissatisfaction manifesting itself as a torrent of vitriolic abuse – born of envy – aimed illogically and undeservedly at those who through honest endeavour, capability and hard work have dragged themselves from the slough of mediocrity into the fertile garden of fulfillment, consequence and contentment.
An admirable Eden…and aspirational
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society’s pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he’s inIt’s alright Andy, you’re only bleeding
That’s what I meant to say.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Life is about opinions and one man yet to be convinced that Frankel is Pegasus is Tom Segal writing in today’s RP.
He crabs the form:-
1. 2000 Guineas – won a substandard event whilst enjoying a conditioning advantage over much of the opposition.
2. Royal Ascot- scrambled home in the face of odd tactics
3. Goodwood- enjoyed a time trial in a 4 horse race during which Canford Cliffs was miles below his best
Tom’s opinions- not necessarily mine.
Disappointing from Tom, a man of normally of sound judgement. I haven’t read the article, don’t normally get the RP on a Sunday.
To pick up on the comments you’ve highlighted. I fail to see how his form can be crabbed. Looking at the field before the race, the 2000 Guineas included the winners of the Craven and Solario, Tattersalls Millions, Futurity & National Stakes, Somerville Tattersall Stakes, Beresford & Racing Post Trophy, Criterium International, Champagne Stakes and Prix d’Arenburg.
A number of those he defeated there have disappointed since, but we must remember he utterly destroyed them. The mental picture I have of the race was Frankel had gone about 5L clear, Dettori made a move to cover the break on Casamento, this is an RP Trophy winner and Frankel just kept going further and further away, he broke Casamento. Casamento has since run a moderate 9th beaten just over 7 lengths in the Prix du Jockey Club, he eventually finished 36 lengths adrift of Frankel.
He scrambled home at Ascot, well Tom said himself, the tactics that day are questionable, although we must now give some credence to Tom Qeally’s comments that the horse was idling. To reinforce the form, that race included the winners of 7 G1 races.
Canford Cliffs was miles below his best. The crux of this argument is the fact that Rio De La Plata got 2 1/2 lenghths closer that at Ascot. We must ask why, as I’ve said in a previous post Canford veered sharply left inside the final furlong, probably cost him a length, but main reason is the reason Casamento and Dubawi Gold crumbled. He was a wreck of a horse close home when chasing the relentless gallop he just couldn’t go any faster, he had already spent his trademark finishing kick. this is what Frankel does to opponents that try to take him on they are knackered 2F out.
Tom Segal will one day get the message.
There can be no doubting now that Frankel has earned the right to be called one of the greatest Milers in history, now the big question is can he go on to mark himself down as one of the greatest horses of all time
In order to do that he has to become a middle distance Champion like Dancing Brave, Mill Reef, Sea The Stars etc, my own personal opinion is he has so much ability that even with his racing style he can achieve it. For some to be claiming he is already 1 of the all-time greats is premature until he proves it over 10 and 12f and it looks like we will have to wait until his 4yr old career to find out but barring injury that day will arrive and it will be glorious to see
Come down drone from your horse who must qualify as the greatest high horse the world has seen.Sure puts Frankel in his place.Have a drink when you descend to earth and say hello to the lads at the track before you remount and head off to Teir na nOge.Like yourself I try to avoid the personal,but the horse!
There can be no doubting now that Frankel has earned the right to be called one of the greatest Milers in history, now the big question is can he go on to mark himself down as one of the greatest horses of all time
In order to do that he has to become a middle distance Champion like Dancing Brave, Mill Reef, Sea The Stars etc, my own personal opinion is he has so much ability that even with his racing style he can achieve it. For some to be claiming he is already 1 of the all-time greats is premature until he proves it over 10 and 12f and it looks like we will have to wait until his 4yr old career to find out but barring injury that day will arrive and it will be glorious to see
What is this fascination with Frankel having win over 10-12F to prove he’s great. No, a horse first needs to prove he is demonstrably better than anything else and it’s then the manner of victory and the quality of those he beats.
If Frankel couldn’t beat Sea The Stars in the Arc, that would not mean Frankel is not a great horse. For example does anyone here think Sea The Stars could beat Frankel over a mile, I would bet everything I’ve got Frankel would win that contest, but it wouldn’t prove that Sea The Stars was not a great middle distance horse.
People have suggested that Brigadier Gerard proved his greatness because he was a brilliant miler who stayed well enough to win the King George. The plain truth is that, that particular renewal of the race was one of the weakest ever, The Brig was all out that day to beat Parnell, who’s only G1 win in 4 seasons racing was the Irish St Leger, third that day was Riverman who was basically a miler, furthest he won was the Prix d’Ispahan over 9F.
There can be no doubting now that Frankel has earned the right to be called one of the greatest Milers in history, now the big question is can he go on to mark himself down as one of the greatest horses of all time
In order to do that he has to become a middle distance Champion like Dancing Brave, Mill Reef, Sea The Stars etc, my own personal opinion is he has so much ability that even with his racing style he can achieve it. For some to be claiming he is already 1 of the all-time greats is premature until he proves it over 10 and 12f and it looks like we will have to wait until his 4yr old career to find out but barring injury that day will arrive and it will be glorious to see
I can not believe some people. They are never satisfied.
Why the Castlemane 4X are middle distances the be all and end all?
I am a great fan of Sea The Stars, he was a great racehorse at middle-distances (particularly 10 furlongs). Yet take a look at his 2000 Guineas. Nobody in their right mind could rate a 1 1/2 length beating of Delegator and 3/4 length back to Gan Amhras as
exceptional
. Rip Van Winkle and Mastercraftsman not ready in 4th and 5th and subsequently improved. But I don’t knock Sea The Stars for not coming back to a mile to "prove it" over 8 furlongs.
Mill Reef never won a mile Group 1 race as a three year old. So he didn’t "prove it" over 8 furlongs either. Yet I don’t downgrade his middle distance form because of it.
Brigadier Gerrard’s form was nowhere near as good at 12 furlongs as it was at 8.
Rejoice at the fact we have an outstanding, great miler.
If they want to race him at 10 or 6 furlongs in the future; that’s fine. But Frankel does not need to race at different distances to "prove" his greatness. 
Value Is EverythingI don’t make a habit of agreeing with Tom Segal but on this occasion I think he has come up with a pretty level-headed assessment. Must admit I found the timing of this thread a little bit strange given that the Sussex ended up being little more than a solo jaunt for Frankel. Yes, you can only beat what’s around but even at his best is Canford Cliffs one of the great milers?
Who was the greatest five furlong horse? Six? seven?I suppose we must go to Australia for the answers. But still they are the greatest.Can you imagine the hullabullu if Black Caviar was trained by Sir Henry! I am just drawing a picture.No offense.
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Someone here said that Frankel is already great no matter he has not been tested at distance or been in a real race packed with worthy advesarys. He is wrong. You don’t hang your hat on an irrelevant Timeform number. My goodness you people are as mad as the Beyer heads here in the states.
NUMBERS DON"T MAKE GREATNESS!
Racing does. Proving yourself out of your comfort zone. Getting out of your back yard where all the yes men live. Yes he is great. Yes he would beat Nijinsky II Yes he can go a distance.
PROVE IT!
What this reminds me of is the Zenyatta Coronation. They even gave her HOTY off a loss at Blame’s expense. They told the world how great she was ad nauseum. An immortal to be. NOT! She barely cracked lastword’s top 100 all time. They talked talked talked while they skipped skipped skipped every big race. Even those on her beloved Flubber (synthetics).
Zenyatta was nothing more than a regional Flubber horse who made her rep against inferior females and then got very lucky when the Classic came to her back yard and Sea the Stars ducked her in fear. Yet the hype machine that now tries to crown Frankel won out with Zenyatta anyway. The Coronation was farce as is the Frankel Coronation.
Frankel at this point is nothing but hype. You can all gush all you want over Timeforms. It means nothing to those really in the know such as myself.
He will remain nothing more than a regional star until he is tested properly and passes those tests. He is another Uncle Mo until proven differently.Just keeping it real. It’s what I do.
Like Kris Diesis I too don’t understand this obsession with 12f. Presumably something to do with The Derby being ‘the most famous race in the world’
12f is just one trip some races are run over amongst a spread of others, and I see no reason why the winner of a G1 at 12f is necessarily any ‘greater’ than a winner of a G1 over 5f, 8f, 10f, 14f 16f or 20f
It is unlikely Usain Bolt would be a ‘great’ at 400m. Does this mean he’s not an all-time ‘great’ despite ‘(truly) great performances at 100m
There no doubt Frankel is a very good horse but for me he is no better than ROG,Miesque or Zizal 3 of the very best milers every to grace The European scene in the last 30 yrs.
I would like to see him at York or even to go for the Irish champion stakes but I doubt it,he has very little to prove going for the QE11
If he was trained by any other trainer he would not be getting the plaudits he was dont get me wrong im a great fan of Henry Cecil,but I also remember him calling Bosra Sham and Sabrehill the best horses he had trained back in 97 and 93.
He is being wrapped in cotton wool he has only had 4 races you look back on other great champions in there 3yr old careers and they where well raced.
Especially if come oct and the groned is heavy at Ascot then he surly would not run.
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