- This topic has 47 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 2 months ago by
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- Total Posts 17716
Hey Presto, as I said earlier, the ones who play the troll cards are the ones who cant step. Just what are you talking about not bringing logical discussion? I have laid out my points signifigantly in many posts on this thread. What have you brought? I am only answering the question I was invited to by the post’s title. And again my answer, "Yes, I lastword am going to question he Frankel. So save the snarky remarks and bring it if you think you can step.
- Total Posts 17716
Timeform Racehorses rating for Rio De La Plata is
121
.
His Timeform rating for this year’s Queen Anne is (I believe)121
.
His Timeform rating for the Sussex is (I believe)122
.
They’ve rated Frankel’s actual
passing the line
rating
139
and not unjustly
added 3lbs for ease of victory
(over Rio De La Plata).
The arbitrary 2 lbs per length is nonsense.
More nonsensical than guessing what Timeform’s figures might be, or pulling a figure from thin air for what Frankel might have done?
I think that having diverse views is healthy for informed discussion. Overseas voices are also extremely welcome in my view.
However I feel that you should revisit some of your earlier postings lastword and consider some of the content. Unsubstantiated remarks such as horse A could give Frankel 10 pounds and beat him 10 lengths over any distance anywhere are hardly helpful in an informed debate. (I know that you haven’t said exactly that , but you get my drift).
You tend to keep making ill informed comments that have no evidence offered in support of them, merely that you are some form of expert in judging horseflesh ( self appointed expert, no doubt).
I don’t like to see anyone removed from the forum, but I think that you should try to reason and back your statements with evidence, before the increasing amount of frustration that you cause , will inevitably call for more calls for your head (metaphorically)Perhaps not my place to say as a newcomer, but internet trolls are generally uninformed and set on nothing but insult and disruption. While this chap ‘Lastword’ appears to have a healthy dose of stateside arrogance and the social skills of Ghengis Khan, it is difficult to contest that his replies are cogent and apparently heartfelt.
I only wish I had the racing knowledge to figuritively kick his rude American backside. Unfortunately I don’t. My opinions are based simply on watching this horse and many others over my lifetime and comparing their impact and results.
At the risk of dropping my guard to him I’ll concede that my opinion is always going to be tempered by a degree of sentiment. There’s no doubt I would like with all my heart to see Sir Henry lording it over the winners enclosure in the biggest races with his wonder colt.
As a young man I spent a fair bit of my lifetime in and around Henry’s stables. My best mate’s father used to do (As they say around here.) a famous little mare named Diminuendo, which a few of you will no doubt remember. On more than one occasion when I’ve been walking up the famous Warren Hill to visit my friend Sir Henry has stopped in his Merc and offered me a lift. He’s genuinely that nice a bloke.
A great man and a great horse, no question in my mind.
- Total Posts 438
… a famous little mare named Diminuendo, which a few of you will no doubt remember.
Ah, good old Diminuendo. Loved her and I thought that Timeform were a bit parsimonious in rating her only 126- her demolition jobs of Sudden Love at both Epsom and, particularly, York merited closer to 130 in my eyes. Mind you, the Halifax organisation probably stuck more closely to the facts back then…
… a famous little mare named Diminuendo, which a few of you will no doubt remember.
Ah, good old Diminuendo. Loved her and I thought that Timeform were a bit parsimonious in rating her only 126- her demolition jobs of Sudden Love at both Epsom and, particularly, York merited closer to 130 in my eyes. Mind you, the Halifax organisation probably stuck more closely to the facts back then…
You may remember she found the Seven furlongs of the Nell Gwyn just a wee bit to sharp for her? We were convinced she had only to turn up and piled fortunes on her. D’oh!
Not sure gow much faith to put in it but I bumped into the lad who does D’arcy’s ‘Edinburgh Night’ in today’s Steward Cup in the town this morning. He said they’d backed it fairly heavily ante-post, though he did admit they wanted more cut in the ground. It is more than likely stable lad loyalty to his own horse, but he suggested it might run into a place and be worth a little each-way. Might be interesting to watch.
- Total Posts 17716
I think that having diverse views is healthy for informed discussion. Overseas voices are also extremely welcome in my view.
However I feel that you should revisit some of your earlier postings lastword and consider some of the content. Unsubstantiated remarks such as horse A could give Frankel 10 pounds and beat him 10 lengths over any distance anywhere are hardly helpful in an informed debate. (I know that you haven’t said exactly that , but you get my drift).
You tend to keep making ill informed comments that have no evidence offered in support of them, merely that you are some form of expert in judging horseflesh ( self appointed expert, no doubt).
I don’t like to see anyone removed from the forum, but I think that you should try to reason and back your statements with evidence, before the increasing amount of frustration that you cause , will inevitably call for more calls for your head (metaphorically)This really has now passed the point of amusement, it’s sublime. I thank all for the comments regardless of the snobby Brit attitude which I do rather enjoy myself. I awlays have and love the entire UK. But I don’t mind playing the Ugly American if thats how you all see me. Think what you want. You have to live with your own thoughts.
To question my expertise though sir in weighing horseflesh is a mistake. I told you all I am the best without saying so. So there, it’s been said. At least in my country I am.
I was the child prodigy who has made this game my life. I know i’m the best. And no self annointment here. I hung with the best group of handicappers in NY for 20 years. It was they who proclaimed me the second coming and hung the nick names on me. The Kid, The Eliteone. I only fulfilled their prophecies but I work for it. Often handicapping 10 hours on 3 cards to find 4 bettable races. I’ve done quite well.
So I invite anyone to bring it and step with the best. I always give the respect that I get. If you want this place to be a Mickey Mouse club of yes men then thats a foreign thing to me. Help me understand.
To suggest that I may be leaving the Forum is a total laugh IMO. I have done what to deserve such a thing? Are you a Mod? None have contacted me. Oh yes, one did and invited me to give my biography which I enjoyed doing in that section.
It’s the height of snobbery to suggest I should be banned.
For what? Are we horseplayes or are we sitting at a church social? What goes on here? I have been the one attacked for my views or the way I present them but I have been respectful.
I certainly will not dumb myself down for any other handicappers. I know what I know and I have confidence in what I do. I can’t be beaten at MY game. Which is why I try to avoid the games of others and stick to playing my game. When I play it’s like walking into a Confessional. Such is the quiet solitude of the final step in my system, the betting.Two years for a trainer to teach a horse to settle. Give me a break.If they had tried to settle(jockey and trainer) him in his earlier races he would be going for the big competetive races by now instead of ducking them and using his speed to reclaim former glory for the trainer.He looked fully settled in his last race in my opinion.I am not buying the excuses from what I have seen.It’s all a cheap publicity stunt.
Frankel is a great horse,over a mile. However go beyond a mile,if Sir Henry will allow, and nobody knows what will happen. Maybe one horse like Nathaniel or So You think would put him in his place. But he seems to be the best miler in GB right now.
OMG
How many more posts about the exact same thing?
Three threads with the same point.
It’s what’s to be expected, lets face it we are in the midst of a great great horse. Perhaps the greatest ever, he’s certainly the best European trained horse I’ve seen in nearly 40 years. I do go back to The Brig, but only have vague memories of him winning the Guineas, Eclipse and Champion Stakes.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything that utterly destroys the opposition like he does, he breaks them down with unbelievable pace and power.
I don’t think any horse alive or dead could beat Frankel over 8F on good ground!Two years for a trainer to teach a horse to settle. Give me a break.If they had tried to settle(jockey and trainer) him in his earlier races he would be going for the big competetive races by now instead of ducking them and using his speed to reclaim former glory for the trainer.He looked fully settled in his last race in my opinion.I am not buying the excuses from what I have seen.It’s all a cheap publicity stunt.
And who are you to criticize. HRA Cecil has arguably, along with Andre Fabre, been the greatest trainer in Europe for decades (baring a slight blip in early noughties). Khalid Abdullah sent his most prized yearling of 2009 to Sir Henry for a reason.
He wanted his horse of a lifetime, yes they knew even at that early stage this colt was something different. He was named in honour of a legend, he is trained by a legend, and this wonder horse will become a legend.
After reading that lastword is such a highly regarded soul (with nicknames even, which he didn’t invent for himself apparently !!) amongst the U.S. handicapping fraternity, I must have formed totally the wrong opinion of him.
With his welter of expertise and his adoring supporters over there I was obviously wrong to believe what Sir Henry Cecil has said i.e. that Frankel may be the best horse that he has ever seen.
After all what does Sir Henry know about recing and racehorses, he isn’t one of the greatest trainers that has ever lived is he ?
No, I must have it totally wrong and there have been loads of better horses, surprisingly all from the States according to the special one, lastword. I bow to your superior judgement lastword.Keep taking the pills mate !!
Have a lie down and call for nurse- Total Posts 17716
Frankly, it’s a myth that he doesn’t settle.
He got lit up by a bump in the Dewhurst, and Henry spent the early part of this season teaching him to race more kindly.
Even though he led the whole way in the Guineas, he was never actually pulling for his head, and he settled beautifully at Ascot until TQ kicked him on, and didn’t pull any harder than his opponents when nobody wanted the lead in the very slow early stages of the Sussex, but settled amenably, again in front, before they had gone a furlong.
Henry knows exactly what he’s doing, problem is one or two on here think they know better.Henry has been ducking and dodging more than Frankel.By the way I think the issue of the greatest trainer has been settled by the acclaim of the public.And it was not Henry who won! But enough of that. By now this horse should have swept up at last two classics and a couple of other group one races as a three year old.He should be acclaimed the horse of the year and not just the miler of the year.Any horse who cannot win over the classic distance will be always suspect.Good maybe but basically a short runner.
So I suppose he never saw Secretariate winning the Belmont as a three year old.Or will winning a mile at Newmarket top it? I would take Frankel on tomorrow if I had Secretariate in my yard.And beat him.
How can we truly say after a race, that the horse who has finishes second or even third is the one "great" horse in the race? – When he/she has put up a rating inferior to the winner and is always going to be inferior to a winner who is not considered "great" and will never be considered "great".
quote]
1986 – Epsom Derby. A lot of people believed Dancing Brave to be extremely unlucky, however the fact remained he was "inferior" to Shahrastani on the day of the Derby, because he finished 2nd. Using your logic, which I am sure the people who sent Shahrsatani off 11/10 favourite at Ascot did, Dancing Brave "would always be inferior" to Shahrastani.
Hindsight tells us otherwise, however you seem to be arguing that if a horse is beaten it is impossible, without subsequent proof, which in the case of Dancing Brave we got in bundles, to label him/her great.
And yet some time ago on here when we debated Brigadier Gerard you argued at length that his B&H defeat at the hands of Roberto was an aberation that should be ignored. I countered this with the clearly less popular suggestion that the Brigadier had actually run up to form and was simply beaten by a better horse on that particlar day, and backed it up with hopefully a reasonable degree of logic.
Unless I am missing something, there seems to be a contradiction here.
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