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Oh, agreed, Ardross. Course you’re right. But it’s not endemic. We’re not in a corruption spiral. We’re not talking the backstretch at Tijuana in the nineteen thirties where well backed horses were nobbled with rocks before the race and thirteen year old jockeys threatened with death if they win (or lose.)
The game is fundamentally straight.
A punter is going to be fine if he/she:
Avoids certain races early in the week. Some low grade jump races. Certain polytrack events. Races featuring certain stables (by no means just one man bands) and horses ridden by one or two jockeys (who, I am sure, are watched like field mice by the Sparrowhawks of the BHA.)
Personally speaking,
I’m far more concerned about watering,
the levy ostriches at the BHA and surreal draw biases than I am about deliberate skullduggery. Most of the time I’m bemoaning the number of bloody favourites who romp home!
You and me both. I have to say when I place a bet I never, ever question the integrity of the sport. If I get it wrong its my fault if I get it right I reap the benefit.
I’d bet my last penny that anyone who makes this game pay doesn’t believe horse racing is any more bent than any other sport or indeed anything else where there is money involved, its only those that cannot make it pay that do because people don’t like to admit they’re not good enough at what they do, the blame always has to be with someone else.
You could argue though Gingertipster that those getting away with blatant disregard of the rules (as opposed to Sir Mark’s more subtle exploitation of the system) are also ‘working the system well’
Some no doubt are working the system by breaking the rules and getting away with it. Just hope the system catches up with them in the end.
Value Is Everything"Most of what there is is at the bottom grades, where prize money is poor."
Does it really matter at what grade it occurs, at the end of every lay there is a punter ripped off and not due to difference of opinion but more so because his/her selection was never ever ever going to win.
For anyone to say horse racing is no better than any other sport are just kidding themselves, anyway your entitled to your opinion but horse racing has a reputation and there is never smoke without fire…
Certainly not excusing it Joncol, just a fact that most of what goes on is at the bottom end of racing. Crap racing should be done away with anyway (imo).
Sympathise with any punter who’s backed a non-trier. But most of the "fire" you speak of is heresay, unproven, a "smokescreen" created by conspiracy theorists; most of what you talk about are NOT non-triers.
Hope you never find yourself in court Joncol. The "no smoke without fire" arguement means you’d have to plead guilty to all charges. You’re in court, therefore you must be guilty.
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Certainly not excusing it Joncol, just a fact that most of what goes on is at the bottom end of racing. Crap racing should be done away with anyway (imo).
I hate disecting posts by Ginge and this is not directed at you but the statement of poor racing should be scraped is frequently mentioned by a well known presenter.
I know you must understand that the low grade racing is what many of our top trainers have used to build they’re careers, obviously its a breeding ground for other people with altera motives but that sample is probably about 1 in 20.
Racing gets far too much stick for being bent, for one it’s not as bad as people make out and most of the public don’t understand the nature of a horse or the nature of the sport.
Certainly not excusing it Joncol, just a fact that most of what goes on is at the bottom end of racing. Crap racing should be done away with anyway (imo).
I hate disecting posts by Ginge and this is not directed at you but the statement of poor racing should be scraped is frequently mentioned by a well known presenter.
I know you must understand that the low grade racing is what many of our top trainers have used to build they’re careers, obviously its a breeding ground for other people with altera motives but that sample is probably about 1 in 20.
Racing gets far too much stick for being bent, for one it’s not as bad as people make out and most of the public don’t understand the nature of a horse or the nature of the sport.
Morning Luke
What msn you using now?
Agree with your point, although low grade racing is often dragged into the mud, it has to be remembered that without it, there would would be a lot of blank days racing throughout the year. If you don’t like it, avoid it and stick to the higher quality stuff, for some punters the low quality meets at Southwell etc are a goldmine.
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As we can see from this thread, virtually all the alleged "scandals" and "scams" occur in low-grade races. Low-grade races are populated by low-grade horses, and – this is the point – the most important factor defining a horse’s grade is its lack of
consistency
.
These sort of animals can win on the bridle by nine lengths one week and get tailed off the next, without any changes in distance, course, going, or jockeyship. That’s because they are unreliable animals, racing against a bunch of equally unreliable animals.
If the Matt Chapmans of this world stopped to smell the smoke before shouting "fire!" this is what their common sense would tell them. Alas, boredom in the booth and the need for journalistic excitement overcome intelligence a little too often, in his case at least.
Alas, boredom in the booth and the need for journalistic excitement overcome intelligence a little too often, in his case at least.
One day the lad will get himself into trouble, Pinza – as he did two years ago. He can’t help himself: It is in his nature.
Ryanaldo’s point is a good one. There are punters who make a tasty income out of the low grade racing Southwell supplies. If I was one of those ancient knowall gits in a betting shop offering sage advice to a bright eyed young punter starting out on the rocky road, I’d tell them to specialise in Southwell, or even Wolverhampton.
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There are punters who make a tasty income out of the low grade racing Southwell supplies. If I was one of those ancient knowall gits in a betting shop offering sage advice to a bright eyed young punter starting out on the rocky road, I’d tell them to specialise in Southwell, or even Wolverhampton.
And that would be sound advice, as value and playing the percentages would be the key there, the same as anywhere else. Of course, to make money they’d still have to put the work in – and making real money at betting, as the mantra of those wise ancients rightly has it, requires monastic dedication. It would be a 24/7 job, and damned hard work too.
A betting shop levy punter doing his money on a doped Curley get it handicapped job, a never sighted Culhane hold up horse, a Catlin tactic reverser, a Ferdy schooler, a Thomas spinal (or was it shoulder) miracle, a Captain Bullshit, owner laid special, a Kempton menstrual disaster, on Graham "the graph is vertical" Lee,
a pocket
talker??
Some right shite being spouted on this thread. Reads more like a job application for the Hereford stewards room.
If I hadn’t a decent knowledge of computers, reams and mounds of data, spare time and the appetite for challenge, I’d be betting on the football too.
Why wouldn’t I be??
It makes my blood boil when it’s suggested that questioning the outcome of some races is because of a lost bet; lack of intelligence; not studying the form…
I hardly bet, and when I do it is just for fun. I enjoy racing but loathe the cheats, and those who support them. I also detest those that try and corrupt others.
So for all those who keep telling the rest of us that there is very little corruption in racing, I have just one question.
How many of you been a jockey or trainer?
Could we not remove some of the problems regarding allegations of cheating / sharp practice / playing the system by simply removing handicap races totally ?
We could retain maiden / novice races, retain sellers for horses of more limited ability, and conditions races for progressive animals, and of course the listed / group races for the more talented equines.
What I would suggest to fill the void would be a series of claiming races, ranging from low value claims for those little better than sellers, up to really expensive claims for those just short of listed class.
The benefits of horses then allegedly being run over unsuitable trips, being schooled in public, employing incorrect tactics etc would then be limited, and backed by the possibility of losing a horse to a claimIt makes my blood boil when it’s suggested that questioning the outcome of some races is because of a lost bet; lack of intelligence; not studying the form…
I hardly bet, and when I do it is just for fun. I enjoy racing but loathe the cheats, and those who support them. I also detest those that try and corrupt others.
So for all those who keep telling the rest of us that there is very little corruption in racing, I have just one question.
How many of you been a jockey or trainer?
Ex-Timeform Jim McGrath, Dave Nevison, our own Alan Potts, they’ve never been trainers or jockeys yet know their horses.
In my opinion a punter can be the most intelligent bloke on the planet, yet if he does not study (and I mean really study) you have no chance of knowing the subject well enough to form a valid opinion on "cheats". I remember, before I "studied", jumping to conclusions.
The amount of times I here punters complaining about a ride without knowing a horse’s temperament, or how it is usually ridden etc.
If someone’s had a bet it does not mean his judgement is automatically flawed. But it is difficult not to be slightly (or more than slightly) biased.
However, everyone has the right to give their opinion, whoever they are, about any ride.
Why don’t you bet anymore Nor?
Value Is EverythingClaiming races get exactly the same problem as handicaps Coggy. Trainers not running the horse to the best of it’s ability for a future coup. Going all out to win a claimer when they’re able to get a good price (odds relating to it’s previous form). With the added bonus of handicapping their own horse.
Value Is EverythingI hate disecting posts by Ginge and this is not directed at you but the statement of poor racing should be scraped is frequently mentioned by a well known presenter.
I know you must understand that the low grade racing is what many of our top trainers have used to build they’re careers, obviously its a breeding ground for other people with altera motives but that sample is probably about 1 in 20.
The vast majority (if not all) good trainers and jockeys would come to the fore without it. Name the top trainers who would not have made it?
With less racing of course some trainers and jockeys will not survive, but the best will be supported and it’s a case of natural selection.
Value Is EverythingEx-Timeform Jim McGrath, Dave Nevison, our own Alan Potts, they’ve never been trainers or jockeys yet know their horses.
It’s not so much a question of knowing their horses, Gingertipster, just knowing who trains them and how; who rides them; what instructions they’ve been given and by whom. That’s why I think it helps knowing what goes on in the racing industry if you have been a jockey or trainer.
I’ve never been a punter. I like watching a race. If I had a lot of money on one horse I’d be mainly watching that horse instead of the whole picture, and then feel sick if it lost.
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Jim McGrath seemed to make a lot of valid points this morning, almost seemed to be encouraging punters to bet on other sports and to abandon racing due to its disregard for punters.
When will people in racing realise that without the betting public there will be no racing!!!!
Keep treating them with such disregard and they will walk, might take a while but they will
Ex-Timeform Jim McGrath, Dave Nevison, our own Alan Potts, they’ve never been trainers or jockeys yet know their horses.
It’s not so much a question of knowing their horses, Gingertipster, just knowing who trains them and how; who rides them; what instructions they’ve been given and by whom. That’s why I think it helps knowing what goes on in the racing industry if you have been a jockey or trainer.
You think Jim, Dave and Alan have that much inside information?
Value Is Everything
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