- This topic has 104 replies, 36 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 2 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Fallonman, there’s another myth (imo): The Morgue-like Turf Accountants.
There’s always plenty of people having a punt in the market town I tend to visit. It’s a real racing town. Okay, there are quiet days (BH Monday, I would agree with you), but by and large, the place keeps four betting shops going – three nationals and an indy.
Love to see a Corals there though – for the competition.
I do agree with you about the formbook problem, but now the evening meetings have ended, following the form becomes a bit easier.
Joncol
wrote
Horse racing is a great sport and everyone likes the odd punt but as a betting proposition for me its at the bottom of the list, not because the sport on paper is anyway less appealing than others but moreso because of jockeys/owners/trainers.
Agree. But don’t forget the hidden negotiator, the agent.
Those that have suggested that you are just a wind up, well, they either know all, nothing, or simply don’t care.
I don’t bet on other sports because I can’t be bothered with having to wait 90 minutes or more to find the result.
At the end of the day, from a betting perspective only, I honestly don’t care if underhand behind the scenes tactics are going on in racing. It wouldn’t make me any less likely to pick the winner!
- Total Posts 17716
Those of you who feel that horse racing is less bent than any other sport, well Im sorry I completely 100% disagree. I you cannot handle somebody diagreeing with your point of view and have to resort to insults well then that says a lot about you.
Its quite incredible how horse racing gets away with so much. The current betting scandal with the Pakistan team is front page news and all over the media. Harry Findlay who lets not forget was banned for 6 months originally when found guilty (thats not opinion its fact) barely got any media exposure. I dare say its because everyone expects it from racing and it comes as no surpise and therefore not reallt worthwhile news.
By the way I dont think Ive ever said I hate horse racing. I love watching it because watching horses is an incredible spectacle. What I do hate is various jockeys/trainers/owners who are ruining the sport.
We all know who they are.. If you want to deny it then fine thats your choice..
You’re perfectly entitled to hold that opinion, Joncol, as fundamentally misguided as it may be, but my objection to you as a member of this group is that you go on a bit.
On Wednesday night, you posted a minimum of seven times and each nugget was on the same subject. To me that is an agenda and in my opinion it’s tedious to read. The posts of someone with a relentless agenda are generally subject to the law of diminishing returns and you passed that point the other day by some considerable distance.
To sum up: We’ve got your opinion on the database, thanks. No need to remind us every time you post.
There are frequent and highly respected posters who agree with you (but still bet vociferously – go figure!) There was an infamous Jeremiah last year who posted on nothing else but animal rights. He was about as interesting as an empty wardrobe. I’m obsessed with R4C and the unhinged neo-Norman plutocrats who maladminister the sport. I’ve been pulled for it on two occasions and am trying to restrict my posts on the subject. I suggest you do the same for the good of the Society, sir.
The media too. There is more than one hypocritical journalist who has laid the boot into horse racing while being paid to comment upon sports such as cricket (sadly corrupt, it appears, with staggering sums at stake which seemingly dwarf the average horse racing skullduggery); motor racing (laughable team instructions), association football (Italian football, sneaky lower division wage "subsidies), rugby league, tennis (numerous minor scale gambles landed on the exchanges) and snooker (many high profile correct score punts landed) etc.
Yep, but none of those sports depend on betting for their existence and like it or not perception is everything, regardless of what you know to be true, Max.
The cricketer’s are serving life bans, Symonds and Briatore are out for 3 years, Italians are in jail, clubs were relegated, Davydenko almost retired after the media storm (he was cleared after a 12 month investigation) and snooker is going the same way as you know what.
Meanwhile racings piss-takers operate almost unhindered 363 days a year, which is OK if betting shop levy payers are willing to continue subsidising them. I’d argue that’s increasingly not the case anymore.
Nobody is saying the game is 100% straight.
It’s just nowhere near the state those conspiracy theorists would have you believe. If it was, then no "form student" would ever be able to show a profit.
Most of what there is is at the bottom grades, where prize money is poor. Apart from the odd one that’s "not knocked about" in normal handicaps prior to a herritage handicap.
An example of good training is Sir Mark Prescott; works the system well, does nothing wrong yet gets horses well handicapped. But those who don’t know enough about form and breeding say he’s bent. Not so.
Also, inside information: Many conspiracy theorists believe you need this; where as a lot of those who make the game pay don’t want it, do so without it, or without much of it. Phill Bull once said of going racing "keep your eyes open and your ears closed" or words to that effect.
I’ve said this before but:
If inside information were key, then there would not be a Ladbrookes in the centre of Lambourn.If I said to another punter "I was down at Emma Lavelle’s last week and saw this gelding working well with Crack Away Jack", he’d probably listen and take it in avidly.
If I said "I’ve studied this race for almost 2 hours and worked out Emma Lavelle’s gelding is an outstanding bet at the price", (and why) the average punter says "You sad git".
That’s the make up of the average punter.Value Is EverythingYou could argue though Gingertipster that those getting away with blatant disregard of the rules (as opposed to Sir Mark’s more subtle exploitation of the system) are also ‘working the system well’
It was obviously the stout breeding that allowed True to Form to leave previous form behind there in the ‘Who’s the Biggest ‘Character” Handicap just then.
Another bullseye hits the target for Phil Smith.
- Total Posts 17716
We all know who they are.. If you want to deny it then fine thats your choice..
Do
"we"
know who
"they"
are? I think the line here is a tried and tested one –
put up or shut up
.
Your point about racing cheats getting less media exposure than cricket or rugby is fair, but you might want to reflect on
why
that is. Nothing to do with conspiracy theory, everything to do with lack of public interest.
- Total Posts 17716
"Most of what there is is at the bottom grades, where prize money is poor."
Does it really matter at what grade it occurs, at the end of every lay there is a punter ripped off and not due to difference of opinion but more so because his/her selection was never ever ever going to win.
For anyone to say horse racing is no better than any other sport are just kidding themselves, anyway your entitled to your opinion but horse racing has a reputation and there is never smoke without fire…
- Total Posts 17716
horse racing has a reputation and there is never smoke without fire…
Emperor Nero would have disagreed, but to be fair to you he was one of the greatest fiddlers of all time (and a great man of the turf too).
However, we could all point to plenty of instances where there was plenty of smoke without the tiniest igneous connection. It all depends on whether mirrors are involved as well – and in most cases (c.f. those laughable accusations claiming Aidan O’Brien was going for a "touch" in some race or other) they certainly are.
That’s a good point, Cav. We don’t punish harshly enough when skullduggery is discovered. My argument here is that skullduggery isn’t as prevalent as posters like Joncol believe.
But rather than sausage-in-the-stalls style skullduggery every race, we
do
have a conflict of priorities between the racing insider and outsider, Cav. How do we harmonise those?
Last week, when Mickey Hammond’s Archies Wish (something like 0790-79O7O form figures, huge cumulative lengths beaten, a couple of tailed off comments), beat a nicely backed Dianne Sayer favourite at Sedgefield on the bridle, two punters in my local shop proclaimed they would pack in betting there and then. I’ve not seen them since. And these were good punters too.
At least Am I Blue was signalled in advance to the punting public and thus could be factored into calculations. The offspring of an illicit union between God and Mystic Meg couldn’t have predicted that day’s sparkling performance by Archie’s Wish – who fell, after a laboured effort, at Cartmel a week later. That’s the type of result punters dislike and yet, there appears to be no question of dodgy practice and the trainer wasn’t scrutinised: Job done for him
Last week, when Mickey Hammond’s Archies Wish (something like 0790-79O7O form figures, huge cumulative lengths beaten, a couple of tailed off comments), beat a nicely backed Dianne Sayer favourite at Sedgefield on the bridle, two punters in my local shop proclaimed they would pack in betting there and then. I’ve not seen them since. And these were good punters too.
Max
True that it was a surprise win at Sedgefield, but then it was really dire contest full of exposed and either untalented or unwilling performers. It was easy to draw a line through a fair chunk of the field, the likes of Janal, Ellandshe and First Fought are very slow, Hapthor seems to have packed in any suggestion of interest. Miss Molly Be Rude and Nobby Kivambo seemed to be well backed more on the basis of having doen less wrong over fences than anything else, not a surprise on their debut. Sir bumble had decent form but I suspect the track did for him, it’s quirky and doesn’t suit some. Pugnacity is not bad at the level on his day, but it eminently beatable.
Archie’s Wish had at least hinted a little ability on a couple of occasions, particularly on handicap hurdle debut at Wetherby . The move to fences seems to have helped, the Cartmel run being at least respectable in equally dire company. He was kept on the go from February until June and it’s possible the break freshened him up a bit. It was a surprise but I can see why it might have happened. My race comment had ‘forged clear’ rather than ‘won on the bridle’ and the second wouldn’t be the most stout opponent when asked.As an aside, the one I’d take most interest of in the Sedgefield contest is the sixth, Executive’s Hall, who will win a lowly handicap or two given time and a stamina test.
Rob
Thanks for that, Rob. Noted. I’ll print it off and if I see the guys I’ll pass it on
Wherever theres money involved and whatever sport is involved there is bound to be a degree of skullduggery……….its the biggest certainty since Chelsea beating Spurs in the 90’s. You can be as naive as you want to blinker yourself from it but it is fact and is true.
Oh, agreed, Ardross. Course you’re right. But it’s not endemic. We’re not in a corruption spiral. We’re not talking the backstretch at Tijuana in the nineteen thirties where well backed horses were nobbled with rocks before the race and thirteen year old jockeys threatened with death if they win (or lose.)
The game is fundamentally straight.
A punter is going to be fine if he/she:
Avoids certain races early in the week. Some low grade jump races. Certain polytrack events. Races featuring certain stables (by no means just one man bands) and horses ridden by one or two jockeys (who, I am sure, are watched like field mice by the Sparrowhawks of the BHA.)
Personally speaking, I’m far more concerned about watering, the levy ostriches at the BHA and surreal draw biases than I am about deliberate skullduggery. Most of the time I’m bemoaning the number of bloody favourites who romp home!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.