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If all horses had equal amounts of speed and stamina then I’d agree with your point about the best place to be in a slowish run race is nearer the front. However, these horses weren’t the same. You could expect a 2000 Guineas winner to have more speed than these in a slower run race (provided Camelot settled which he did) even if coming from further back than many.
It would have been interesting to have the fractions for the final furlong. I suspect they would show that Camelot faced in impossible task in trying to overhaul Encke given the lead he had entering the final furlong.
Camelot was in the clear 2 furlongs out. Distance aside if that had been Sea the Stars e.g., who’s not even one of my all time favs, he would not only have caught the leader but he’d have done so with half a furlong to run and went past him like a tree like he did from a similar position in the Arc.
Blame Joseph all you like but some of the blame has to be put on the horse’s lack of ability
Exactly. The horse just isn’t that good. A couple of mistakes from young O’Brien but any great horse wins that race from two furlongs out. Glad it lost because the hype would have been ridiculous. It’s been bad enough with Aiden saying he’s the best horse he’s ever trained.
Coolmore are desperate for a Frankel or Sea The Stars
If they hadn’t have run him in the Irish Derby on unsuitable ground, they and the horse would not have won what has proved (recently) to be the best Classic in Europe. Of course it was the right decision – they won.
Bed time for you PC! Recent winners Frozen Fire, Fame and Glory, Cape Blanco and Treasure Beech!!!
Anyway not sure you are getting my point. He won – just – but at what cost? How much did it take out of him? Did it prevent him running in the KG or something else? Did it have any effect yesterday? Was it the best thing for the horse?
Since 2000 –
2000 – English Derby Sinndar, Irish Sinndar.
2001 – English Galileo, Irish Galileo
2002 – English High Chapparal, Irish High Chapparal
2003 – English Kris Kin, Irish Alamshar – winner IRISH
2004 – English North Light, Irish Grey Swallow – winner IRISH
2005 – English Motivator, Irish Hurricane Run – winner IRISH
2006 – English Sir Percy, Irish Dylan Thomas – Winner IRISH
2007 – English AUthorized, Irish Soldier of Fortune – Winner ENGLISH
2008 – English New Approach, Irish Frozen Fire – winner ENGLISH
2009 – English Sea the Stars, Irish Fame and Glory – ENGLISH
2010 – English Workforce, Irish Cape Blanco – ?
2011 – English Pour Moi, Irish Treasure Beach – ?
2012 – Englsh Camelot, Irish Camelot.If they hadn’t have run him in the Irish Derby on unsuitable ground, they and the horse would not have won what has proved (recently) to be the best Classic in Europe. Of course it was the right decision – they won.
Bed time for you PC! Recent winners Frozen Fire, Fame and Glory, Cape Blanco and Treasure Beech!!!
Anyway not sure you are getting my point. He won – just – but at what cost? How much did it take out of him? Did it prevent him running in the KG or something else? Did it have any effect yesterday? Was it the best thing for the horse?
Since 2000 –
2000 – English Derby Sinndar, Irish Sinndar.
2001 – English Galileo, Irish Galileo
2002 – English High Chapparal, Irish High Chapparal
2003 – English Kris Kin, Irish Alamshar – winner IRISH
2004 – English North Light, Irish Grey Swallow – winner IRISH
2005 – English Motivator, Irish Hurricane Run – winner IRISH
2006 – English Sir Percy, Irish Dylan Thomas – Winner IRISH
2007 – English AUthorized, Irish Soldier of Fortune – Winner ENGLISH
2008 – English New Approach, Irish Frozen Fire – winner ENGLISH
2009 – English Sea the Stars, Irish Fame and Glory – ENGLISH
2010 – English Workforce, Irish Cape Blanco – ?
2011 – English Pour Moi, Irish Treasure Beach – ?
2012 – Englsh Camelot, Irish Camelot.So 4 out of the last 13 and none since 2006. Case dismissed.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
If they hadn’t have run him in the Irish Derby on unsuitable ground, they and the horse would not have won what has proved (recently) to be the best Classic in Europe. Of course it was the right decision – they won.
All races vary in quality from renewal to renewal. Going into this year’s Irish Derby you could see that it was not going to be the best Classic in Europe this season. Born to Sea can probably be most kindly described as an Enigma, a Listed race is his only win. Astrology had lost his way and was a winner in a Group 3 with only four runners. Light Heavy had won a five runner Gp 2 by a neck in a race that has provided no placed, let alone winning runs subsequently. Akeed Mofeed had only won a maiden coming into the race and he is the sole runner, including Camelot to have won since, at 2/5, in a five runner listed race run in gutters.
Camelot started 1/5 that day, what was he ever going to prove in those conditions, against that field? Why not run him in another Gp1, on better ground, if the Triple Crown were the main aim all along? Sure, he won the race and it will look good on a CV, provided it isn’t scrutinised too hard. However, I am sure the Triple Crown would have looked better still, despite the St Leger being a weaker and less sexy classic.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Imperial Monarch has been a late(ish) withdrawl in three races, Derby, Irish Derby and now St leger. Maybe there’s a reason why they haven’t taken on Camelot with Imperial Monarch? Could it be the noises coming out of Castle Ballydoyle were nothing but hot air? King Aidan hyping up his Camelot as impregnable.
May be that is a bit unfair. Camelot is a good horse. Fair enough not many of the vanquished have gone on to win… But Hermival 2 3/4 length third in the 2000 went on to be second, just 3/4 length away from Most Improved in the St James’s Stakes. Not run since… And Main Sequence beaten 5 lengths by Camelot at Epsom. Looked unlucky in both Grand Prix de Paris (couldn’t get through and beaten 1 1/2 lengths by Imperial Monarch). Then held up off a slow pace second in the Great Voltigeur (neck behind the all the way winner Thought Worthy. Latter also beaten just over 11 lengths by Camelot in the Derby.
To use both the Gosden and Lanigan horses performances in the St Leger as a direct line to Camelot running to form looks a dodgy form line. Main Sequence isn’t bred to get 1m4f, let alone almost 1m7f… And he fluffed the start, losing lengths. Thought Worthy didn’t run anything like as well at Donny as he did at York.
Camelot is a good horse, hasn’t yet (and possibly won’t now) show he’s as good as Coolmore make him out to be. I’ve a sneaky suspicion temperament just might get the better of him; is by Montjeu after all.
Value Is EverythingMark , we are doing this one to death , but one point not so clearly made so far
, is it not possible that he left this race behind in the Curragh ….it was a slog for certain think he bottomed out on that day , why they ran him heaven only knows , but he remembered it for sure , and was only a shadow of his real self at Doncaster
Cant be blaming the jock , Camelot had a good furlong to pass the winner , he was not able , end of
Irish Derby cost him the ledger , did he need that race ???
Now he has to come back next year and try again
IMO
Ricky
It wasn’t a bad ride, as said before, if you stop the tape just before Encke kicks, Joseph has them all covered. He would have seen every jockey off the bridle and would have been very confident. Suddenly, Encke does something no one expects and bursts clear. Joseph then rides along in vain and the horse steadily stays on but doesn’t get there.
It’s just a really average year.
Camelot won the Guineas through stamina (many horses kicked too early), took a while to hit top gear in the Derby to beat Astrology and Main Sequence and then won a poor Irish Derby. Perhaps O’Brien genuinely thought it was a far easier task than it was. Who knows. The only criticism I can think of, is that Joseph didn’t wind the horse up and let him gradually hit top gear.
I believe, if the race was re-run, Joseph would take him to the outside and slowly start winding him up from further back, and he’d win. That’s hindsight, though!
I’m not convinced he’d turn the tables if they re-ran the race.
Encke was pulling quite hard for the first half a mile whilst Camelot was nice and relaxed and to my mind the winner definately won on merit.
I think someone mentioned that Camelot ran with his head lower than normal in the early stages. I caught part of the interview before the race, where Aiden stated that Camelot was the heaviest he had ever been and that they had got him running nice and relaxed, carrying his head low. Perhaps that explains that element of his run.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Aidan’s post race interview was cringeworthy. Tongue-tied doesn’t even begin to cover it.
However, that aside, one notable difference between the current trainer at Ballydoyle and his illustrious predecessor is that Vincent very rarely, if ever, trotted out a thousand excuses after a defeat.
Aidan’s St. Leger/ Triple Crown disappointment was probably compounded by the fact that he also lost out on becoming the first person to train all five English classic winners in the same season.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Just seen the race for the first time, and the only conclusion one can really arrive at is that on the day, Encke was the better horse. Perhaps the ride wasn’t of a particularly high quality, but you’ll see worse, and it certainly can’t be used as a valid enough excuse for this defeat, epsecially relative to the pre-built hype for Camelot.
Interesting to read Keiren Fallon’s views on the subject.
Whilst lambasting "armchair jockeys" and defending Joseph O’Brien’s overall ability as a jockey, he nevertheless criticised his ride on Camelot in the Leger – pointing out that in his opinion, Joseph was caught napping and praised the ride Barzalona gave Encke.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Interesting to read Keiren Fallon’s views on the subject.
Whilst lambasting "armchair jockeys" and defending Joseph O’Brien’s overall ability as a jockey, he nevertheless criticised his ride on Camelot in the Leger – pointing out that in his opinion, Joseph was caught napping and praised the ride Barzalona gave Encke.
He also said that Camelot was ridden to get the distance, and he said you can do that in other races, but not ones like the St Leger, it has to be ridden to win.
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