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<br>to robbo or dm
what do u consider nayefs optium distance to be 10f or 12f
allthough he has shown a lot of form on ground with cut he may actually be better with faster ground he does have a typically amercian bred gulch as a sire
PR, i still persist that the Galileo Derby was average. But in saying that, i believe (as said last year) that’s he’s a very good horse, just perhaps not the all time champion that people were saying. I think Galileo would have won this year’s King George and yes, Golan’s boosted Galileo’s form nicely.
I tend to side with 12f being Nayef’s best distance and he seems happy on most ground but i think you are right in that good/fast ground suits him best.
DM: I think Nayef ran to about GII standard in Dubai. no matter what the trainer of Boreal says, it’s clear that (when looking at Boreal’s form) he has performed at his best on soft ground. The ground in Dubai and in the King George wouldn’t have suited him nearly as well as soft ground. If it’s soft in the Arc, he could surprise a few people as long as his confidence isn’t too hurt after Saturday.
Nope, still not changing my view on Nayef just yet. I don’t think he could handle an on form Sakhee or (from the recent past) Galileo, Fantastic Light and Sinndar (why oh why didn’t they let him race as a 4yo!)
I think Nayef can get placed in true G1’s but win them? I’m not so sure. He’s going to have to prove he can beat real good horses that are of the highest standard.
Like i’ve said, i’m just going on what’s happened on the track. Like with Hawk Wing, on what he’s done, he can’t be called a superstar etc. Now, i’m not saying he won’t go on to be the winner of the Juddmonte but i find it hard to call him a "great" horse.
Nayef’s a good horse but he’d have trouble coping with some of the better G1 races/horses of recent times. For instance, i think he’d have to go some to beat Giant’s Causeway over 10f and Kalanisi too. Nayef (on the way i look at the form anyway) hasn’t actually won a "true" G1 yet so i’m not going to call him a true G1 horse. When he does that, i’ll be on here giving him credit in the right places! :)
Regarding Boreal’s owner stating that he goes on fast ground. He would say that, as who is going to want to send a mare to be covered by a stallion who needed 12 furlongs on soft to show his best performances.<br>He’ll probably make a cracking N.H. sire though.
Great stuff.
robgomm, you seem keen to make a distinction between ‘true’ group 1 performers and some lesser group who have won group 1s but aren’t fit to wear the mantle of greatness you insist on in a Group 1 performer. Fair enough.
I suggest you need a new classification – Group Premiership(!) or Super Group 1 or something.
Take Zindabad – surely a solid, tough Group 2 horse. Not Group 1. Looking at the form prior to Saturday’s race you felt he’d give it a right good crack, almost certainly be placed, but just fall short of the required class. And indeed, he did run a cracker, particularly off that pace, but was found wanting for class.
So, if he’s rock solid Group 2 (and surely he is), then Golan and Nayef (proven Group 1 winners), must be Group 1 horses. World-beaters – I don’t know, you’re probably right – but definitely Group 1 horses.
Personally I love it when top race form is dismissed by the majority – it provides some great future bets. (Kazzia’s 1000 Guineas/Oaks for example). One or both of these could go on from here – maybe even all the way to the Premiership!. <br>
robgomm: Yes you are absolutely right. It is a great shame that we haven’t seen horses like Galileo, Giant’s Causeway; Sindaar, Mozart or some others not as four year olds. Because it is normal that horses improve still a lot from three to four. And horses like Halling, Fantastic Light, Swain, Singspiel and so on are the perfect example that worth to send them racing as older horses. Not one of those three horses for example was a Group I winner as a two year or three year old.
<br>But let’s go back to talk about Nayef (and Golan). What I want to say is, they are no Superstars or Horses of the Year or anything else (at least in the moment) ;). But they are real Group I horses.<br>In my opinion English and Irish Racing sets the Standard in Europe and the best horses in Europe compete there. Imagine just for a few second (maybe minutes) how many Group I Races we have every year in Europe? I do not no an exact figure, but just try to think about how many there are….and no take all those horses who won or where placed in those races……and try to make up a list in your mind (Rating) of this horses. And you will see with Nayef (and Golan) you will always be in the Top Ten (1m2f – 1m4f). And this horses should have the right to be called Group I horses.
And just one more question: How many more Group I Races will the first three of the Kinge George will win this year.
prince regent:
I do not know for sure….at the beginning of his career I thought 1m2f will be his distance…..today I probably would say about 1m4f he is a little bit better. From the ground I would say he prefers good ground.
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Quote: from tooting on 11:49 am on July 30, 2002[br]<br>Take Zindabad – surely a solid, tough Group 2 horse. Not Group 1.  Looking at the form prior to Saturday’s race you felt he’d give it a right good crack, almost certainly be placed, but just fall short of the required class.  And indeed, he did run a cracker, particularly off that pace, but was found wanting for class.  <br>
You’re comments echo mine.  But I would suggest that Zindabad’s style of running is what stops him from being quite up to Gp1 class.  I’m sure that, if he was capable of running on from off the pace, he would be top class from 10f-16f.  He might even be good enough to win a Leger.  But to beat the Golans and Sakhees of this world, I just don’t believe it to be possible by dictating the pace.  A Gp1 horse has to have a finishing kick, and dictating the pace saps any finishing kick that Zindabad may have. But there again, would he be the horse he is if held up? I doubt it somehow. It’s not easy as the horse is obviously better for being allowed to front-run.
(Edited by Racing Daily at 1:02 pm on July 30, 2002)
Dm,
Just to give you those stats on Group 1 races in Europe:
GB 28 including 5 restricted to 2yos only<br>France 26 inc. 5 for 2yos<br>Ireland 10 inc. 3 for 2yos<br>Italy 8 inc. 1 for 2yos<br>Germany 7 and no races for 2yos
I make that 65 Group 1 races for older horses in Europe.
Not a bad Rating for Horses short of Group I Class ;)
BHB senior handicap Nigel Gray said: “I’ve promoted Golan to 127 and moved Nayef to 126, a 4lb improvement on his previous best, and that is working through the rating that I now have for Zindabad in the Hardwicke which would be 121.
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