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The first three are my only serious suggestions but the second three deserve our recognition nevertheless
Vincent O’Brien
Flying three horses to Cheltenham in 1948 when everyone thought he was crazy and winning with all three, the rest is history
Tom Dreaper
Training the two greatest jumpers of all time who were so far ahead of every other horse in training, then or since, that the rules of racing had to be altered to accommodate them
Michael Dickinson
First five home in The Gold Cup, that will NEVER be equalled etc etc, etc
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Paul Nicholls
Denman and Kauto Star’s domination of the current Grade One Chases
Enda Bolger
For his total domination of Banks races
Ginger McCain
Winning 3 Grand Nationals with a former selling plater
Would agrre with you on Vncent O’ Brien.
The fact that he won the National for 3 consecutive years with 3 different horses is enough for me.Apparently he was quite good on the flat as well…….
I was brought up near Arthur Stephenson’s yard at Crawleas so he will always be my favourite trainer.
O’ Brien’s record is surely the best even though he did cross over to the other side
Vincent O Brien, Untouchable! Martin Pipe, Unique! Michael Dickinson, Majestic! Paul Nicholls, Getting there! David Nicholson, Legend! Jenny Pitman, My favourite! What she did with Royal Athlete was unbelievable! The most patient trainer i ever saw! As a person, 2nd to none!
I doubt whether Enda Bolger would expect to see his name under this thread and Donald McCain is proving to be a good deal more successful than his father. Ginger was Red Rum and not much else.
Can’t really comment pre-70s but would add the likes of Fred Winter and Bob Turnell to a top ten list. Both turned out a very high percentage of very good horses from relatively small strings – probably a third of the likes of Nicholls and King. Obviously, in those days there were far less races and also far fewer condition races.
Vincent O’Brien has to be top surely.
Dickinson was good but his career a bit short to figure as one of the best.
Pipe was one of those trainers that raised the bar and his record of championships won is very impressive.
Nicholls could end up outdoing them all though. He’s compiling a fantastic record.
Jonathan Sheppard is up there for sure.
American steeplechase champions he’s trained:
Athenian Idol (1973)
Cafe Prince (1977, 1978)
Martie’s Anger (1979)
Flatterer (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986)
Jimmy Lorenzo (1988)
Highland Bud (1989)
Mixed Up (2009)Major racing wins
Steeplechase:
Colonial Cup Steeplechase
(1975, 1977, 1979, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1999, 2000, 2009)
New York Turf Writers Cup Handicap
(1979, 1983, 1984, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994,1997, 2000, 2001, 2006)
Royal Chase for the Sport of Kings Hurdle
(2002, 2007, 2008)Flat racing:
Flower Bowl Invitational Stakes (1982, 1983)
Diana Handicap (1993, 2008, 2009)
Man o’ War Stakes (2001, 2002)
Sword Dancer Invitational Handicap (2001, 2002)
United Nations Handicap (2002)
First Lady Stakes (2008)
Humana Distaff Handicap (2009)
Vinery Madison Stakes (2009)
Jenny Wiley Stakes (2009)
Chicago Handicap (2009)
Arlington Handicap (2009)
Northern Dancer Turf Stakes (2009)
Kentucky Cup Turf Stakes (2009)
Valedictory Stakes (2009)Breeders’ Cup wins:
Breeders’ Cup Grand National Steeplechase
(1988, 1989, 1992, 1999)
Breeders’ Cup Filly & Mare Turf (2008)
Breeders’ Cup Filly & Mare Sprint (2009)Racing awards
U.S. Champion Steeplechase trainer by earnings (1973-1990, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1999, 2007)Great article on the man http://www.drf.com/news/article/110095.html
This is another one of those tricky questions where you have to compare the relative performance of one era with another. It’s impossible.
However, largely on the stats alone, a short list of ‘yesterdays’ trainers would have to include;M V O’Brien, M C Pipe, F T Winter and the Dickenson family, if that’s permissible. Of todays trainers both N J Henderson and P F Nicholls are pushing the boundaries.
Others who have a marvellous CV would include F T Rimmel and B Briscoe, for his handling of the amazing Golden Miller, not to mention his owner, the eccentric Miss Paget. For which feat alone he must have deserved a medal of some sort.
Martin Pipe !
15 times NH Champion trainer
On 8 occasions had over 200 winners in one season.Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Think we need to define best.
Best for whom?
Punters?
Owners?
Horses?
Himself?Just a thought!
Colin
Trainers like Fred Winter, Fred Rimmell, Tom Dreaper, Michael Dickinson and Vincent O’Brien were all masters of their craft – especially O’Brien, who, had he continued training jumpers would most probably have been untouchable. Paul Nicholls has the nous and ability – and more importantly, the amunition to be successful for many years to come.
However, in terms of longevity allied to consistency and overall achievement, then Martin Pipe, for now at least, stands alone. His only blot is that he failed to train a Cheltenham Gold Cup winner
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
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Absolute huge fan of Michael Dickinson but I’m not prepared to say he was the best of all time. How can anyone compete with Vincent O’Brien? He won everything there was to win both on the flat and over jumps.
But it’s not just being a good trainer that makes someone great.
I’ve seen first hand, trainers with 3 boxes and two horse getting one ready and landing huge touches. They have done the job to perfection with nothing left to chance and won when they wanted to win. Give them Kauto Star he’ll still win the Gold Cup but that doesn’t mean they’ll become great trainers as we know them.
I saw one trainer who was landed with a horse that was the biggest rogue you could ever imagine. I swear you wouldn’t have give him 50 quid for it. It took you half the day to get him to come out of his box, he refused to keep up with the others on the roads never mind the gallops and if ever a horse was a candidate for Chum dog food it was him.
The trainer refused to give in to the horse and rode him out himself for 3 months and through sheer determination and a lot of humouring sweetened him up for 1 day. His exact words to the 4 owners before the race were :Back this fooker today but never ever back him again" The horse duly won but as the trainer suggested he went straight back to his old ways and never came near to winning again.
Bit of a rant but the point is there are many great trainers out there who know the game inside out but the O’Brien’s, Dickinson’s Cecil’s and Pipe’s had one up on them: A brilliant business mind, a great personality, determination and a good idea of where they wanted to go.
Take Martin Pipe for example and I mean to take nothing away from what he achieved. His first winner Hit Parade landed a touch in a seller at Taunton and he reckons he never had so much fun and celebrated for 6 months. That experience helped him recognised a virtually untapped
market: Owners who dream of landing a touch like they had. So he set out not just to train more winners but to land as many gambles as possible and make sure everyone knew, with all the hype that could go with it, that a touch had been landed……..He and Chester Barnes became flavour of the day in no time and new owners were queuing up to get in on the act and he could have filled his boxes twice over at one point. Martin Pipe wasn’t just a brilliant trainer he was a brilliant thinker who built an empire from one sole winner in his first year.His son David has taken over but Martin made sure he knew everything there was to know when he sent him to work with none other than Michael Dickinson. With their joint experience behind him it’s little wonder you hardly notice Martin has gone.
As I said I am a huge fan of Michael Dickinson but he took over from Dad Tony whereas Martin Pipe had a stable full of useless mules when he started off……..sorta unfair to say who was the best is it not?.
Michael Dickinson would get my vote for best trainer. He cranked up the level of expectation and set the standard for a raft of talented trainers to come along behind.
As for Ginger McCain, he’s not even the best trainer in the family.
robnorth wrote…As for Ginger McCain, he’s not even the best trainer in the family.
TRUE!!!!
I only added him to the list to start some controversy, still good feat winning the 3 Nationals and placed twice, I never backed Red Rum though, I did back L’Escargot twice
I’m torn between O’Brien and Dickenson and re another post, my mother worked for Dorothy Pagents family at the tail end of Golden Millers career
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