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Quote: from Sal on 5:45 pm on Oct. 27, 2006[br]<br>German bloodstock has improved out of all recognition over the last few years and has much in its favour.  Their studs are well regulated and their unique bloodlines have had (despite Jack’s scorn) success outside of Germany.<br>
For instance where? Italy?
And I didn’t say that German stallions couldn’t have success outside Germany, I just said that Lomitas hadn’t.
It’s not that breeding is more important than race record, or vice versa.  There are a combination of factors – availability of the sire line, versatility and durability of the horse himself, fashionability, even marketing.  If there is a full brother available who has a far superior race record, then of course the one with the worse race record will only be a cheapo alternative (until he proves himself as a sire – think Sadler’s Wells/Fairy King).
Shirocco himself is proof of successful German bloodlines (and yes, by listing Schiaparelli, Iota and Nicaron, you were suggesting that Germans can’t win outside their own country).  Recent winners I can think of have won in the US (the Arlington Million is not usually a ‘weak race’, nor is the EP Taylor), Grade 1s in Hong Kong and Singapore, Group races in France (including the French Derby), Italy and Dubai.  I think Lomitas has had winners in all these places except Dubai (although Silvano was 3rd in the Sheema Classic).
Just because they haven’t won where? Ireland? Then they don’t count?
Sal, I said that I also thought America had a weak turf division.
Cacique was beaten by Bago twice, crushed by Sulamani, Norse Dancer and Bago in the Juddmonte – and now he’s the Yanks’ best turf horse.
If horses want to be the best, they have to win in either Ireland, UK or France, because this is where the strongest competition is. Of course they don’t have to win in all 3, but a lot of the best horses do.
Montjeu won in all 3. Hurricane Run won in all 3.
To be fair to cacique, he was unsuited by ground at york but perhaps more importantly was (i think) viewed as a late developing type by Fabre ( he didnt run at two)
Every chance hes improved a fair bit since going across the pond
"Of course they don’t have to win in all 3, but a lot of the best horses do.
Montjeu won in all 3. Hurricane Run won in all 3"
For crying out loud – I can list you a thousand of the best horses that have not won in all three of those countries.
We have established that German horses have won Group 1 races in the UK and in France – which you count as proper racing.  They have also won Group 1 races in many other countries round the world, which mysteriously cease to count, depending on your argument.
This is from a much much smaller and more insular breeding industry than other countries of their size.  There were only 1100 thoroughbred foals born in Germany last year, compared to 17,500 foals born in the UK and Ireland.  Their success rate with their raiders is actually looking pretty good.
Clive, you’re right about Cacique – his family also have a good record racing in America once they reach 4 and 5.
Cacique’s siblings have an amazing record at the Breeders Cup. Dansili second in the Mile, Banks Hill and Intercontinental both winners of the Filles and Mares. Guess that makes Heat Haze the black sheep of the family, only able to finish fourth in that contest in 2003
Quote: from Sal on 8:01 pm on Oct. 27, 2006[br]
We have established that German horses have won Group 1 races in the UK and in France – which you count as proper racing.  They have also won Group 1 races in many other countries round the world, which mysteriously cease to count, depending on your argument.
I must have missed where we established that. And I didn’t say that good horses must have won in all 3. Go back and read that sentence again.
And can anybody here realistically say, that America has a better turf division than either France, the UK or Ireland?
The Tin Man, Showing Up, Cacique, English Channel, Go Deputy, T H Approval, Better Talk Now…
7 decent turf horses in a country population 300 million.
Pride, Hurricane Run, Ouija Board, Dylan Thomas, Rail Link, Scorpion, Alexandrova, Mandesha, Visindar, Sir Percy, Shirocco, Alexander Goldrun, Maraahel, Notnowcato….
And funny btw, how people are very happy to accept that Aragorn is a very average miler in this country, yet all of a sudden, I put forward that Cacique is a no better than Group 2/3 in this country, and people can’t wait to jump on my statement and ridicule it.
Quote: from jackane24 on 8:44 pm on Oct. 27, 2006<br>The Tin Man, Showing Up, Cacique, English Channel, Go Deputy, T H Approval, Better Talk Now…
7 decent turf horses in a country population 300 million.
<br>Does the size of the human population affect the quality of horse?
(Edited by Ultimate Nightmare at 8:55 pm on Oct. 27, 2006)
What a surpise – someone didn’t understand.
America has a population five times bigger than the UK’s.
What is deduced from that? America is a far bigger country :o
If you missed where Smithy and I have mentioned Group 1 winners in the UK and France then you haven’t been reading properly.
And I’m not querying that overall the turf division is weaker in the US – its not their primary concern.  However, many of their top turf races (Man O’War, Arlington, obviously Breeders Cup) are contested by an international field, which usually means that the form is not entirely worthless (unlike your argument).
Quote: from Smithy on 5:36 pm on Oct. 27, 2006[br]<br>Not forgetting Paolini who, using the ‘how much prize money have you won?’ argument, should be able to stand for about 50k
(Edited by Smithy at 5:40 pm on Oct. 27, 2006)<br>
Noticed how it was edited while I was writing my reply. So I was reading properly.
You didn’t actually give any horse names, just names of races they had won. Not sure that counts.
Horses have travelled over from Japan to contest the King George and Arc.
Other than the Grosser Preis von Baden, there is not one race that big horses from Europe will flock to Germany to contest.
I don’t understand why everyone is still ‘bad-mouthing me’.
– I’ve given evidence of why I think Shirocco’s fee should be bigger.
– I’ve given evidence of why German racing is weak. I’ll happily go through the past 10 German Derby winners and have a look-see what they’ve done outside of their country.
– I’ve given evidence that UK, France and Ireland have far better turf divisions than America.
– I’ve given evidence that it isn’t just the breeding of a horse that the stud fee is set by.
I think people just see ‘Jackane24’ and think ‘Right, I must think of a way to ridicule him’
Quote: from jackane24 on 9:29 pm on Oct. 27, 2006[br]I don’t understand why everyone is still ‘bad-mouthing me’.
I think people just see ‘Jackane24’ and think ‘Right, I must think of a way to ridicule him'<br>
<br>I wonder why ;)
J,
I’ve no interest in bad-mouthing you (or anyone else), but  I can understand why folk have problems following your reasoning.
For example,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>What a surpise – someone didn’t understand.
America has a population five times bigger than the UK’s.
What is deduced from that? America is a far bigger country.<br><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
America is bigger, but thats not a deduction to be made from population size.
Russia is far bigger than the US, yet has half its population.
China is about the size of the US yet has 4 times its population.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-population-density.htm
Yet you present your "deduction" as unassailable reasoning…….
<br>Similarly, when you say Shirocco’s fee "should" be bigger, to me that’s saying something different from  it "could be bigger and would still sell".
To me its implying there’s something wrong in setting it at that level.
<br>best regards
wit
So 300 million people could live in Britain then Wit?
I was not making a comparison with Russia or China or anywhere else.
My comparison was between the UK and America.
UN – could you possibly write in bold the day you actually post something that isn’t putting someone down, but actually about racing?
EDIT – I changed the opening sentence from ‘300 million people could FIT in the Uk’, for fear that people would take it too literally.
(Edited by jackane24 at 9:56 pm on Oct. 27, 2006)
Ok, where to start….
Jack – people don’t set out to ridicule you as a form of sport. They generally do so because you make brash statements which many people consider ill thought out and lacking in research, knowledge or experience.
Those same people then find it irritating when they point out your errors only to find you attacking them in an arrogant and aggresive manner.
While I, personally, welcome your enthusiasm, you would probably find your standing enhanced, your knowledge increased and your chances of ending up in the Paul Haigh column decreased if you framed your comments differently and gave a little more thought to your arguments before hitting the submit button.
Regarding Coolmore – given the limited market for their stallions, if they’d been ‘screwing’ people for the last twenty five years might I suggest they’d have been found out by now.
Here’s the news. They make deals. Happens in every line of business I’ve ever come across.
It is a particularly British trait to find flaws in the successful. That understood, it is therefore no surprise to find people picking holes in the most successful commercial breeding operation in European history. ÂÂÂ
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