- This topic has 19 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 17 years, 5 months ago by
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I just thought I would record for posterity a couple of the remarks made about SPs and the dying on-course market in today’s Racing Post. I imagine the reason Glenn has not been on about this already is that he is lying down in a darkened room recovering from shock.
"…the betting ring and the independent SP market are still quite handy and the big boys can still manipulate the odds" Adrian Pariser, on-course bookmaker.
"…it [the small-scale on-course market determining off-course SPs] has survived because it has suited the interests of both punters and off-course bookmakers." David Ashforth, Racing Post.
Not one quote from a punter, or from anyone qualified to speak on their behalf, though the usually excellent Ashforth oddly presumes to identify that their interests have coincided all along with those who would empty their pockets through manipulation of the odds.
Sorry Pru, but I just can’t get interested in the machinations of those who manipulate SPs- any punter still betting at SP deserves all they get, IMO.
I am more astonished by the brazenness of the former comment and the glibness of the second.
What’s to be astonished about? Everybody knows it’s a racket including Lord Donoghue. Everybody knows that the vested interests of those who decide the system will mean that anything can be said yet nothing will be done.
Punters as a group are weak and SP punters are the weakest group of all. Even other punters shun them and say they deserve what they get (see Carvills’ comment).
The question that has to be asked is whether all this is in the long term interests of even those on the gravy train? You have to ask yourself why a roulette wheel with a triple zero has never evolved anywhere in the world. The answer is that it’s above the optimum rate of rake to have one. Why then do the government, the bookies and, most alarmingly, the BHA think 30% margins are a great idea? You only have to look at racing’s market share to see the effect they’re having.
Glenn, I don’t think poor margins are affecting racing’s market share to any significant extent. In terms of overround per runner, it’s normally a good deal better value than, say, football, and I certainly never heard a word said about poor margins on the horses when I worked in betting shops.
What’s to be astonished about? Everybody knows it’s a racket..
Everyone other than the soon-to-be Racing Journalist of The Year for 2008 and his employers, perhaps.
….and I certainly never heard a word said about poor margins on the horses when I worked in betting shops.
Friggo
I suspect that’s probably because a fair proportion of betting shop punters think ‘margin’ is something you spread on bread instead of butter.
Rob
If anybody doubts that SPs are beyond a rip-off and totally controlled by the trilaterals, just look at Laddies offer today.
Take an early price on the Hennessy and your bet will be refunded as a free bet if it’s SP is bigger – any horse, no limit, from first to last, even if your horse doesn’t finish the race
Fancy 10k on Alberta’s Run at 7s? Laddies are bottom price. If it starts at 15/2 or more you get you money back……………Good luck with that project.
What’s the spread on the number of qualifiers? 0.25-0.5?
Anyone still betting at SP is doing so ‘For Amusement Only’.
They may as well be playing bingo, the lottery or feeding the slots for all the chance they have of winning.
The high street bookmakers make no qualms about the fact that they offer a good service and have overheads that must be covered by profits from the increased margins they make from SP betting since the changes two years ago.
No point in us criticising SP on this forum because we are aware of the conditions under which SP operates. Might just as well mock the lottery ticket buyer or the bingo player and that would include most of us from time to time.
The SP battle is over with; no-one cares any more. Let it go.
TRF the patron saints of betting shop punters.
year 2000 sp’s returned manually average 2.3% per runner, not one voice of criticism.
year 2004 sp’s returned by computer using new system average 1.3%
year 2006 system amended to include 50% of sample instead of 33%.
average 1.8%.
outrage by the patron saints , "betting shop punters being robbed"
where were you for the 50 years leading up to year 2000?
"Not one voice of criticism". Lol.
a) not true.
b) your erroneous perception may be a reflection of the fact that individuals have much more opportunity to make their feelings known publicly through forums these daysIt is understandable that "sophisticated" punters and somewhat less sophisticated on-course bookmakers do not give a chuff about the betting-shop fodder that bets at SP. It is less understandable why the likes of the BHA (who recognise punters as one of its customer groups), Racing Post (bought primarily by punters) and the Office of Fair Trading (in place to ensure that the public is not ripped off) seem to think the situation whereby prices continue to be "manipulated" in this manner is satisfactory.
One of the things that has happened much more recently than the time 50 years ago to which some people clearly belong is that the on-course market became much weaker and more open to manipulation in some instances than was once the case. Even Ashforth admits that it is a very small tail wagging a very large dog now.
Rob,
That was pretty much what I was getting at. You’d be at surprised at the level of disdain I have for the general public.
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Anyone still betting at SP is doing so ‘For Amusement Only’.
They may as well be playing bingo, the lottery or feeding the slots for all the chance they have of winning.
With all due respect Artemis, that is absolute tosh!
Not everyone feels the need to sit in front of a computer screen before every bet, anymore than they feel the need to bet in the on-course market where they can also often steal a fraction over the odds.
Bookmaker’s early prices are so ridiculously tight and uniform nowadays that it often pays to bet at SP, knowing full well that much of the time the returns will often be higher than any available morning price, anywhere.
I’d say around a third of my betting is done at sp, and I certainly don’t do it for amusement, nor do I gamble on anything else.
I don’t do too badly either, so while you may see only one way of skinning a rabbit, it is totally wrong to assume there aren’t others.reet hard
I think you have a fair point about morning prices. They are often very tight compared to the eventual SP. I believe that it is better in the long term to bet at SP rather than take morning prices, but I wouldn’t recommend either as a sensible betting strategy in the current climate for anyone wanting to make money.
If you are managing to stay ahead despite the percentages you have to beat at SP, then it is very much to your credit and you must be a good judge of form.. Very few could say the same – I certainly couldn’t do it as a punter with limited time to analyse form. In fact, I don’t think I could realistically expect to make money even if I had much more time to study.
barry dennis
In the ‘old days’, most punters did not have the knowledge of margins that they now have and those that did had no platform on which to express their thoughts.
Today, there is still only a relatively small band of punters who trouble themselves with profit margins, although a large proportion of that small band are forum members.
Artemis, what I am trying to say is, put the soap box away,
I know several betting shop punters that bet regularly, large cash amounts on races, dogs, horses that have overounds of 6% per runner,
tried telling them but they say " do you get paid in cash straightaway on your internet" these punters bet for the buzz, and earn a damn lot more than me in their own field, they are as intelligent as most of us
THEY BET FOR THE BUZZ.
You mean they are addicted to Gambling Barry? Just the type of punters betting shops like?!!!!
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