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Interested as to how they would have derived that rating? Cue Card although easily dismissed has I think finished closer to Sprinter Sacre than in last year’s Arkle; it is very hard to believe Flemenstar has given his running and until today Finian’s Rainbow has looked seriously out of sorts. If Sprinter Sacre is 203 then that must also make Cue Card one of the best chasers we have ever seen.
You got it right in the last sentence
What reason is there to suppose Flemenstar and FR did not give their running?
There wasn’t that much evidence beforehand but I would strongly suspect Flemenstar is a better horse on softer ground. As someone suggested on another thread today’s conditions were very much in favour of Cue Card. If the two horses were to meet over 2m4f on soft ground at Navan the result might be entirely different. Would such a result then make Flemenstar better than Cue Card? As for Finian’s Rainbow he hadn’t beaten a horse this season and although he no doubt improved for the better ground given the almost suicidal way he was rushed up to contest the lead I don’t think his finishing position relative to the winner can be used as anything like an accurate benchmark.
Interested as to how they would have derived that rating? Cue Card although easily dismissed has I think finished closer to Sprinter Sacre than in last year’s Arkle; it is very hard to believe Flemenstar has given his running and until today Finian’s Rainbow has looked seriously out of sorts. If Sprinter Sacre is 203 then that must also make Cue Card one of the best chasers we have ever seen.
You got it right in the last sentence
What reason is there to suppose Flemenstar and FR did not give their running?
There wasn’t that much evidence beforehand but I would strongly suspect Flemenstar is a better horse on softer ground. As someone suggested on another thread today’s conditions were very much in favour of Cue Card. If the two horses were to meet over 2m4f on soft ground at Navan the result might be entirely different. Would such a result then make Flemenstar better than Cue Card? As for Finian’s Rainbow he hadn’t beaten a horse this season and although he no doubt improved for the better ground given the almost suicidal way he was rushed up to contest the lead I don’t think his finishing position relative to the winner can be used as anything like an accurate benchmark.
I’ve seen no excuses from the Casey camp who simply accepted that their horse ‘wasn’t good enough’. CC didn’t just beat him he thrashed him by 19 lengths. Granted, the trip probably found FR out, but Cue Card is destined to be the highest class horse that very few people like.
Even the respected Mark Howard (a non-CC fan who would not be convinced when we discussed him at a preview night) said grudgingly after the Ryanair "CC was on a going-day".
There’s been some amount of rubbish written about this horse whose form is gold-plated, from a nose defeat giving Bobs Worth half a stone to a hammering of First Lieutenant and a trouncing of Flemenstar. Were it not for S Sacre, he’s won a QM by 22 lengths and a Melling by 19 on top of his two festival victories, skating up in a Grade 1 at Ascot and annihilating Silviniaco Conti on his debut. Good grief, what do people have against this horse?
In a previous thread you said you were
"strongly against Sprinter Sacre running over anything other than two miles for the rest of his career. Stepping up in trip would be taking a needless risk with the horse’s wellbeing and future career".
Nobody saw the slightest evidence of that today. His breathing operation was two years ago and he has obviously recovered from it 100%. He ran twice on pretty desperate winter ground this season and performed superbly.
I just don’t understand where this theory is coming from.
Mike
Sprinter Sacre is a very large horse. Large-framed animals are widely suspected to be much more prone to exercise-induced breathing problems. Remember Mad Max, Quewetwo and Sexy Rexy. His fragile breathing has already surfaced as a novice hurdler – and corrective procedures for such problems are never permanent. They are ‘quick fixes’, but can withstand years of racing if the horse is managed sympathetically.
To say that his performance today allays all fears about longer trips damaging the horse is jumping to an irrational conclusion, in my opinion. An easy 2.5 miles on a flat track is nothing compared to 3 miles+ on winter ground. Remember how tired the horses finished in the King George this year. Obviously, Sprinter Sacre’s breathing is a timebomb that may go off at some point in his career. Hopefully connections remain wise to this and keep the horse dominating at shorter distances, or intermediate trips on sharp tracks on good ground.
Dismal afternoon for all those who insisted SS was a ‘two-mile horse’ so I’ll give them another chance to take umbrage by suggesting that his next target (if he swerves Punchestown) should be the King George.
Mike
I have no doubts whatsoever that Sprinter Sacre could win a King George. I was very early to suggest that the horse was bred to stay. However, Henderson has other horses for that race and i think that connections believe it will ask too much of the horse to win championship races at 2 and 3 miles during the same season, as we’re likely to see the horse race more next season.
Bridle horse – Donald McCain needs to have a word with himself.
Nothing he has done on the racecourse suggests that he won’t stay. But I think the last thing Henderson would want to do is take on Bobs Worth. And why would he?
But I wish he would! So what if he steps up to 3m or 3m2f and gets beat? Then they’d know and surely he could then just go back down in trip.
In a previous thread you said you were
"strongly against Sprinter Sacre running over anything other than two miles for the rest of his career. Stepping up in trip would be taking a needless risk with the horse’s wellbeing and future career".
Nobody saw the slightest evidence of that today. His breathing operation was two years ago and he has obviously recovered from it 100%. He ran twice on pretty desperate winter ground this season and performed superbly.
I just don’t understand where this theory is coming from.
Mike
Sprinter Sacre is a very large horse. Large-framed animals are widely suspected to be much more prone to exercise-induced breathing problems. Remember Mad Max, Quewetwo and Sexy Rexy. His fragile breathing has already surfaced as a novice hurdler – and corrective procedures for such problems are never permanent. They are ‘quick fixes’, but can withstand years of racing if the horse is managed sympathetically.
To say that his performance today allays all fears about longer trips damaging the horse is jumping to an irrational conclusion, in my opinion. An easy 2.5 miles on a flat track is nothing compared to 3 miles+ on winter ground. Remember how tired the horses finished in the King George this year. Obviously, Sprinter Sacre’s breathing is a timebomb that may go off at some point in his career. Hopefully connections remain wise to this and keep the horse dominating at shorter distances, or intermediate trips on sharp tracks on good ground.
Sorry TYF but I just can’t agree with anything you are saying. Sprinter Sacre is patently fit, well and in superb form. The idea of him being campaigned a few races a season against a modest bunch of two-milers for the rest of his career is anathema to me.
Horses are here to
race
. To stunt their careers when they are perfectly healthy based on some theory about what may or may not happen in the future is nuts. Denman was a large-framed horse with breathing problems. Remember his grindingly-tough wins off top weight in the Hennessey, not to mention Gold Cups etc?
Maybe he should just have stayed in his stable.
Mike
Nothing he has done on the racecourse suggests that he won’t stay. But I think the last thing Henderson would want to do is take on Bobs Worth. And why would he?
But I wish he would! So what if he steps up to 3m or 3m2f and gets beat? Then they’d know and surely he could then just go back down in trip.
Well it’s the Moulds who pay the bills, Henderson is the hired help. Anyway, I seem to remember it wasn’t something that Michael Dickinson discouraged!
Mike
If racing, particularly NH racing, was waged with the primary concern being ‘what might happen to the horse’ then the whole gloriously uncertain show might as well be scrapped.
What might happen to the horses in today’s National I wonder?
Horses, particularly those with pretensions to being top-class should be tried and tested to the full: that is what the compelling-but-hard sport should be about surely
Although I don’t quite share Mike’s obsession with SS running over 3m I would nevertheless be most intrigued to see him have a go and his presence in the KG would certainly add charisma to that already charsimatic old race
Should he be bottomed at 3m and never quite recover from it (as was the case with Denman after his utterly compelling GC) then so be it but I for one wouldn’t blame connections for ‘risking’ the horse at all, quite the opposite in fact
I’m loath to draw conclusions from a horse’s appearance from TV pictures but SS to my gogglebox-eyes doesn’t look a two-miler anyway; much more the lengthy, lean raw-boned stayer but blessed with a tremendous galloping speed
Meanwhile back at 20f, it’s long been a shame there isn’t a Grade 1 at this distance before Christmas. Perhaps it’s time to upgrade and ‘market’ the Grade 2 Peterborough Chase. SS whizzing round Kempton-like Huntingdon in November would be an ideal prep for the ‘big step-up’ to the King George
And meanwhile further back at 16f, the current contemporaries of SS at this trip may be a "modest bunch" but next year and further into the career of the just-7yo SS who’s to know what may come along to threaten SS; and I certainly hope something does should SS be kept to speed-chasing
Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown
– just the way it should be, and hopefully will be
They went slower to halfway in the Melling than the novice race on Thursday. I doubt the Melling was much of a stamina test, so I would not draw conclusions about him staying 3 miles.
Geraghty said that yesterday was far enough, if they had gone a true pace early it would have made that opinion even stronger I would have thought.
What separates the very good trainers from the great?
Answers on a postcard I suppose but for me it is that instinctive, god-given ability to know what is right for a horse. That modesty and humility to do right by the animal rather than go in search of personal glory. Not to be swayed by opinions from people who have never trained a horse but who seem to know how one should be campaigned.
For me it is what distinguishes the Henderson’s and Mullin’s, the Cecil’s and Stoute’s.
How would Frankel have been campaigned if he were trained by Bolger?
Would Stoute have run Camelot on heavy in the Irish Derby?
How many times would Quevega have won at Cheltenham if he had been trained by Pipe?
What would other trainers do with Sprinter Sacre?
We don’t know the answers to any of those questions but can make a pretty good guess based on what we have seen before.
Whatever happens in the rest of his career I can be pretty sure that, like Sir Henry did with Frankel, Nicky will do the right thing by his horse.
Some people won’t be satisfied with that. They will want him to run in the KG. If he runs in the KG they’ll want to see him in the GC. It won’t be long before people tire of seeing him win over 2 or 2 1/2 miles no matter what he beats or how electric he is when doing it. Fair enough – we are all entitled to our opinions.
Personally I wouldn’t want to presume to know more than the man who see’s him every day and I will be happy to enjoy him for what he is. An equine machine. A true superstar. How lucky to have had two in such quick succession under both codes.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
What a cracking post Jonibake. I think NJH the most naturally gifted trainer in my lifetime.
Shame about the tarnishing with Moonlight Path which will always cast a (moon)shadow.
Superb trainer
I think NJH the most naturally gifted trainer in my lifetime
Can you define that?
Mike
I think NJH the most naturally gifted trainer in my lifetime
Can you define that?
Mike
I can’t, no more than I could define the gifts of Steinbeck or Mozart. I doubt Henderson himself could define it. Someone said yesterday that there have been 89 races from Aintree & Cheltenham in the past 2 years – NJH has won 22 of those.
I could give you my definition of the success of P Nicholls: Hard-nosed, workaholic with a fine PR strategy and a willingness to change his stance and compromise principles to keep the likes of Smith and Hales, while they have good horses. Invests heavily in top-notch staff and facilities and takes an out and out business approach to training. There’s nothing at all wrong with that, and I’m sure NJH has great staff and facilities. But if you gave them both the choice of twenty unraced horses and ensured all else was equal – staff, facilities, nutrition, gallops etc, I’d bet with a high degree of confidence that NJH would come out on top.
I think NJH the most naturally gifted trainer in my lifetime
Can you define that?
Mike
I can’t, no more than I could define the gifts of Steinbeck or Mozart. I doubt Henderson himself could define it. Someone said yesterday that there have been 89 races from Aintree & Cheltenham in the past 2 years – NJH has won 22 of those.
I could give you my definition of the success of P Nicholls: Hard-nosed, workaholic with a fine PR strategy and a willingness to change his stance and compromise principles to keep the likes of Smith and Hales, while they have good horses. Invests heavily in top-notch staff and facilities and takes an out and out business approach to training. There’s nothing at all wrong with that, and I’m sure NJH has great staff and facilities. But if you gave them both the choice of twenty unraced horses and ensured all else was equal – staff, facilities, nutrition, gallops etc, I’d bet with a high degree of confidence that NJH would come out on top.
I believe Mike meant define which period you refer to, ie you’re lifetime?
Except that NJH appears to have neglected to train Finian’s Rainbow and Riverside Theatre properly since other stable stars have appeared on the scene…
But I wish he would! So what if he steps up to 3m or 3m2f and gets beat? Then they’d know and surely he could then just go back down in trip.
Surely there is just the tiniest chance that the trainer has some idea about whether or not a horse will be effective over a certain trip? I don’t think this sport is about, nor should it be about, farting around with a horse to satisfy the personal curiosity of certain individuals. If we had seen Frankel run and win over a mile and a half someone would have murmured about whether he could win an Irish St Leger.
There seems to be an element that are never satisfied with enjoying a brilliant horse for what it is. Everything has to be the new Mill Reef or Arkle etc and it reminds me of the days of youth when you would ponder if only Pele had been born in the Gorbals, how many World Cups Scotland could have won?
I think it’s a silly concept to suggest that a horse lose his unbeaten record over fences just to pander to the masses.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
I believe Mike meant define which period you refer to, ie you’re lifetime?
No, that’s OK, it was as Joe said.
Forgive me if I baulk somewhat at the endless intangible qualities accorded to trainers – their ‘God-given abilities’, their quasi-laying-on-of-hands – as I tend to believe their success is more likely to be based on more corporeal attributes. Hard work and dedication sure, but most of all the acquisition of top-quality staff, especially stable-hands. A slice of good luck and wealthy owners (the first likely to attract the latter) is no hindrance either.
Back to Sprinter Sacre!
I’m not really fussed whether the King George becomes a likely target or not. I just think he should be ‘tried out’ at the extended trip. Anyway, let’s be honest, it is going to happen. There’s no way this wonderful horse will be staying at 20f or less. Sooner or later, he’ll move up to three miles.
Mike
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